The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:
	What would they look like, then?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130716234341

[John William]

	Quote:	marton
	I am sure BJ can call his mate Spanky and get the UK adopted as a US state All problems solved, ready-made Constitution to use, no monarchy and a running democracy; also no need for a new trade deal.

Great idea although I'm sure the Yanks will insist on the UK keeping the monarchy before adding the UK
as the 51st state and incorporating it into Disneyland.

We could then look forward to a re-enactment of the Highland Clearances as Donald Trump turfs out
all the highland people and crofters together with all those Wind Farms, to make way for Trumps
mega Scottish Golf course.

[curley]

	Quote:
	https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130716234341

LOL
Are these the Brexiters or the Remainers?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	curley
	LOL Are these the Brexiters or the Remainers?

100% Brexiters

[NotAllThere]

If you'd just agree to hold your meetings in here, you'd have PLENTY of time to figure things out before the deadline.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	Fact remains that people may or may not allow the leader of a party to influence their overall choice at the ballot box, regardless of who their particular MP may be.

Just want to pick up on this...

A lot of how a person votes is based upon the party policies and how active their local MP is in the community. Case in point...

When I lived in Wigan, I knew my old MP and had met him a couple of times in a professional capacity, but he ruined his reputation durinng the expenses scandal. His successor, Lisa Nandy, is very active and visible in the town. I'd struggle to find any of my friends who haven't met her, seen her or worked with her at some point, and whilst many don't like her balancing act on Brexit, the majority know she's a decent, hard working person with her heart in the right place.

By contrast, my current MP carries the unfortunate nickname of 'Absent'. He's notorious for not holding MP surgeries, turning up at charitable events and not responding to the concerns of his constituents. When I lived there, a good friend and my landlord were both very active with local charities, and they both told me that they never had a response from our MP, so always used to approach the neighbouring MP who was far more active locally despite holding a loftier government post. That MP is Theresa May surprisingly enough.

A longtime good friend lives in Ealing. He was used to seeing both Rupa Huq (Ealing) and Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead & Kilburn) regularly shopping in his local supermarket with their partners and children. He used to comment that it must take them ages to do their shopping because they would happily stop and chat with anyone who asked them to. That's all gone now because, since early 2017, they've both needed security at various points.

	Quote:
	We need a good old revolution, abolish the monarchy, titles, all that crap, and build a proper group of free, democratic, independent nations from scratch, with actual constitutions, not all this "precedence" crap.

Evolution NOT revolution.

[Blueangel]

Just to expand on 'evolution' a little...

'Face of medieval man reconstructed from 600-year-old skeleton'
https://news.sky.com/story/face-of-m...leton-11842051

[Rob]

The government tactic is to try to encourage the quick passage of Johnson's agreement on what is essentially hearsay.

You may have noticed Tory ministers claiming on broadcast media at very available opportunity that everywhere they go people are urgently asking them to "get Brexit done". This is very probably a lie. There is some truth in it, in as much as people are righteously fatigued by a process that to the average person is opaque, somewhat bewildering, and seems to have been going on interminably for over 3 years.

However it is telling that researchers conducting focus groups report that while participants respond favourably to the idea of "getting Brexit done" by implementing the Johnson deal, when informed that doing so will not, in fact, get Brexit done, but will merely trigger an even longer period of many years of further negotiations, "an awkward silence ensues".

Unsurprisingly, the "get Brexit done" tactic is profoundly dishonest, the latest phase of the grand scale con-trick that is Brexit. Thank Bog that there are decent men and women like Benn, Letwin, Starmer, Lucas, and Bercow keeping watch.

I also found the ‘get Brexit done’ stories from politicians a bit too convenient. Nobody has a clear idea of what it is so I guess they ate misinterpreting the subtext; ‘stop arseing about treating parliament like a circus and act like grown ups’.

[Troublawesome]

"The European Parliament will veto the new Brexit deal unless it gets assurances that EU citizens will not face deportation from Britain in a new Windrush scandal, Guy Verhofstadt warned on Tuesday. "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-risk-another/

Finally, the EU woke up and started to play tough. There are 2 sides on a negotiation, the EU is putting their citizens lives as a priority whereas the UK says nothing about UK citizens living abroad in Johnson's deal. They'll throw them all under the £350m bus.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I also found the ‘get Brexit done’ stories from politicians a bit too convenient. Nobody has a clear idea of what it is so I guess they ate misinterpreting the subtext; ‘stop arseing about treating parliament like a circus and act like grown ups’.

I think the wish of the people 3 years ago should be enacted regardless, I did not vote but believe the wish of the public who could be bothered to vote was clear. Only a corrupt government could go against the referendum, it won't end well.

[Troublawesome]

The people are morons, which is why we elect representatives. If people decided on taxes, policing and justice it would be anarchy on the streets. Everyday would be like the movie, Purge.

Experts and scientists exist for a reason. Otherwise you end up with flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers and well... Brexiteers.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	The people are morons, which is why we elect representatives. If people decided on taxes, policing and justice it would be anarchy on the streets. Everyday would be like the movie, Purge. Experts and scientists exist for a reason. Otherwise you end up with flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers and well... Brexiteers.

That's a pretty strong argument against direct democracy.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Tom1234
	That's a pretty strong argument against direct democracy.

Experts are on average wrong, if the were right 60% of the time they would be very rich & would not need a day job being paid as an expert.

A chimp throwing darts at the Financial Times beats most fund managers with a portfolio selection.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	The people are morons, which is why we elect representatives. If people decided on taxes, policing and justice it would be anarchy on the streets. Everyday would be like the movie, Purge. Experts and scientists exist for a reason. Otherwise you end up with flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers and well... Brexiteers.

But the representatives are generally neither experts nor scientists. They are politicians.

[Troublawesome]

Yes, surrounded by industry experts and special consultants.

FMF cannot even fathom what an expert is, he thinks only of traders when he thinks of an expert. He cannot imagine I am talking about immunologists, maritime trade professionals, security experts, special needs advocates, non-profits etc

If the joe from the pub had to take a decision on any of these matters we'd all be dead by now.

And yes I am against direct democracy on an illiterate, uneducated society. Switzerland is the exception that can pull it off as it has a high disciplined society who regularly voted against tax breaks and pension rises. Can you imagine if you asked British people to abolish tax rates and double pensions and NHS spending what the answer would be? It'd be Yes al the way to a default of the country. Look at Brexit, you have established facts of lies from the current PM and instead of being in court for treason he's more popular than ever.

Representative democracy is not ideal but it's the best civilised societies can do. Asking the people if they want their cake and eat it too is simply stupid.

If you're in doubt just look at the UK in the past 3 years as a result of what happens.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	I also found the ‘get Brexit done’ stories from politicians a bit too convenient. Nobody has a clear idea of what it is so I guess they ate misinterpreting the subtext; ‘stop arseing about treating parliament like a circus and act like grown ups’.

That's the craziest thing of them all, nobody knows at this point what the UK will end up with. In part because it's unknowable (FTA? What FTA? With whom?) but also because with this tight of a timeframe nobody can possibly have a good overview over the current proposition and what it all (probably) entails.

And then there's this "let's get Brexit done" bullshit nonsense. Even a lie will eventually be accepted as the truth if it's repeated often enough. WMD's in Iraq anyone?

[rainer_d]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	Representative democracy is not ideal but it's the best civilised societies can do. Asking the people if they want their cake and eat it too is simply stupid. If you're in doubt just look at the UK in the past 3 years as a result of what happens.

It's only stupid if you have stupid, uneducated constituents.

Governments all across the world and of all political colors have worked tirelessly in the last decades to keep their constituents as stupid and uneducated as they possibly can under the assumption that they can then be more easily manipulated (towards what the politicians want).

It's a silly game and there are no winners in the end.

[marton]

United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s Brexit was approved in principle by the House of Commons on Tuesday, but soon after the governing body rejected his plan to fast-track it within the next three days to meet a crucial Brexit deadline.

British lawmakers voted 322 to 308 against the three-day timeline, after the House of Commons approved Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement Bill, the Associated Press reported. Members of Parliament (MPs) said three days was not enough time to review the 110-page bill fully, the BBC reported.

Johnson has previously promised to remove Britain from the European Union by Oct. 31, but the elimination of the three-day timetable effectively makes it impossible for him to fulfill that promise, according to the AP.

[Troublawesome]

And as soon as they scrutinize it they'll realise it's an abomination and won't proceed.

2nd referendum was always the end game, they are all playing stupid to show they want to Leave but no one has the b***s, they secretly want to Remain by being forced to do so by the People and keep their chairs in the process.