The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The UK does not tax capital

It does. When you die. Heavily.

Quite easy to do some avoision on this at the moment though, isn't it?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	It does. When you die. Heavily. Quite easy to do some avoision on this at the moment though, isn't it?

No only at 40% (36% if you donate 10% to charity), thats lower than income tax rates.

To avoid the tax you have to give away assets early, probably a bad idea for most people as care late in life can easily cost £500,000, give it to the kids & a 50% chance they will lose half in a divorce. Living too long in poor health s the biggest risk.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	No only at 40% (36% if you donate 10% to charity), thats lower than income tax rates. To avoid the tax you have to give away assets early, probably a bad idea for most people as care late in life can easily cost £500,000, give it to the kids & a 50% chance they will lose half in a divorce. Living too long in poor health s the biggest risk.

So you'd be happy to pay 40% tax on money that may have already been taxed at 45%? I never had you down as a Corbynista - hail comrade!

As you mention, it is very easy to avoid with trusts and inter-vivo gifting (rumoured to be coming down to 5 years from 7, if not totally abolished), so you can see why the mega rich are keen to see the status quo remain so.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The UK does not tax capital ... [blah blah income tax] ... How 45% can be seen to be too little beats me.

	Quote:
	It does. When you die. Heavily.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	No only at 40%

Keeping this for posterity, tovarisch.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	So you'd be happy to pay 40% tax on money that may have already been taxed at 45%? I never had you down as a Corbynista - hail comrade! As you mention, it is very easy to avoid with trusts and inter-vivo gifting (rumoured to be coming down to 5 years from 7, if not totally abolished), so you can see why the mega rich are keen to see the status quo remain so.

It's just what the law is in the UK, which UK tax residents have no choice to pay.
It's beed 7 years for about 35 years, however a further gift if £10k can screw up the previous gifts. It's almost too complicated to do for most people.

Trusts don't avoid the tax, they may help preserve assets in a divorce. 40% IHT payable on trust assets on death of someone with a life interest.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It's just what the law is in the UK, which UK tax residents have no choice to pay. It's beed 7 years for about 35 years, however a further gift if £10k can screw up the previous gifts. It's almost too complicated to do for most people. Trusts don't avoid the tax, they may help preserve assets in a divorce. 40% IHT payable on trust assets on death of someone with a life interest.

inter vivos trusts absolutely do avoid IHT.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Keeping this for posterity, tovarisch.

You have to remember that in 1974 before Thatcher & Howe changed the UK tax system in 1979 income tax on earned income topped out at 83% with an additional 15% on investment income. (98%) This applied to incomes above £20,000 (£204,729 in 2018 money). Basic rate tax was 34%

During WW2 top rate was 99.25%

So yes in context 45% max income tax & 40% IHT are rather low by UK standards

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	inter vivos trusts absolutely do avoid IHT.

Can you provide a link to show that is true under UK law? I am 100% sure it does not.

How doe it avoid Gordon Brown's rules

2006 Budget moved to stop trusts “being used to shelter wealth from inheritance tax”. The reforms meant that most assets moved into trust were subject to an immediate 20 per cent IHT charge and an additional charge of 6 per cent every 10 years. A further charge of up to 6 per cent is levied when assets are transferred out of the trust.

So, stop trying to deal cards from an empty pack on a subject on which your knowledge comes from popular soundbite bullshit you glean from next door’s budgie

https://www.gov.uk/trusts-taxes/trusts-and-income-tax

[John William]

Here's my take on Brexit and what 'the people' are in for from Parliament and any pro-Brexit government
that remains in power. Should the UK finally leave the EU.

As I reckon the day the UK leaves the EU is not the end of the business of Brexit and the consequences
of Brexit but the end of the beginning with far more to come.

As Deal or No Deal, Parliamentary procedure and bills will be dominated by years & years of wrangling over
trade agreements; first with the UK's immediate neighbours in the EU and then the rest of the World.
These trade agreements ( as we all know ) take years to ratify, after going through all the fine details
and smoothing out any objections that might arise from both parties before coming to an eventual
agreement.

Not to mention any realignment in rules & regulations in everything from trading standards, to health
& safety rules, as the UK has made it very clear that they are not going to rubber stamp any R&R
that comes out of Brussels ( just because we might still be trading with them ) but do 'our own thing'
when it comes to any innovations in her rules and regulations.
Existing EU rules will no doubt continue through after Brexit day but there's nothing to stop the
UK from diverging from them.

Then there's those rumblings from the SNP from 'north of the border' who are adamant that Scotland's
been betrayed by Brexit and that Scotland's best interests are served by becoming an independent
country and staying in the EU.

Those who are totally fed up of Brexit and hope that it will be out of the headlines and out of
the UK's Parliamentary business, once Britain finally leaves the EU are going to be in for a rude
awakening !!

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Feel free to provide evidence disproving what I said. I am not lying, and therefore I don’t need to waste my time trying to prove to someone anonymous on the internet who unlikely wants to be convinced in any case. I can see where you’re going, however bear this in mind: General Elections are also carried out under secret ballot, yet exit polls these days are able to predict the number of seats each party will win.

I'm a long way from being anonymous. There are several people on this forum, and some in this thread, who I know in real life.

One thing about this forum, probably more than many you will encounter, is that a high percentage of the members work in science based professions (not me), so you rarely get to state something 'as fact' without being required to back it up with a varifiable source. Personally, I crave facts. Know your audience.

Exit polls in the UK are taken from a random sample of approx. 20k people across the country, which by any measure is a small sample size. An exit poll was not performed for the 2016 EU Referendum because there was no previous data to compare it to as the last referendum was 40yrs previously and also did not have an exit poll. I'm giving you just 4 of the dozens of links, and have chosen from sources across the political spectrum, which took less than 30 seconds.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ndum-exit-poll

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-polit...erendum-result

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7094886.html

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-a3279081.html

So you see Tony, you don't get to spout erroneous 'facts' without being challenged here. Most of us have learned that and willingly provide sources. It's good manners.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	John William
	Those who are totally fed up of Brexit and hope that it will be out of the headlines and out of UK's Parliamentary business, once Britain finally leaves the EU are going to be in for a rude awakening !!

I watched this leak to the FT spreading last night and if you have social media away from here, this is something people need to be absolutely clear on. FT have deliberately not put it behind their usual firewall.

	Quote:
	The British government is planning to diverge from the EU on regulation and workers’ rights after Brexit, despite its pledge to maintain a “level playing field” in prime minister Boris Johnson’s deal, according to an official paper shared by ministers this week. The government paper drafted by Dexeu, the Brexit department, with input from Downing Street stated that the UK was open to significant divergence, even though Brussels is insisting on comparable regulatory provisions.

https://www.ft.com/content/5eb0944e-...3-eca8fc8f2d65

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Can you provide a link to show that is true under UK law? I am 100% sure it does not. How doe it avoid Gordon Brown's rules 2006 Budget moved to stop trusts “being used to shelter wealth from inheritance tax”. The reforms meant that most assets moved into trust were subject to an immediate 20 per cent IHT charge and an additional charge of 6 per cent every 10 years. A further charge of up to 6 per cent is levied when assets are transferred out of the trust. So, stop trying to deal cards from an empty pack on a subject on which your knowledge comes from popular soundbite bullshit you glean from next door’s budgie https://www.gov.uk/trusts-taxes/trusts-and-income-tax

From your own link:

“Bare trusts
These are where the assets in a trust are held in the name of a trustee but go directly to the beneficiary, who has a right to both the assets and income of the trust.

Transfers into a bare trust may also be exempt from Inheritance Tax, as long as the person making the transfer survives for 7 years after making the transfer.”

I shan’t hold my breath for an apology, I’d just ask you to stop listening to advice from your cockatoo.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	From your own link: “Bare trusts These are where the assets in a trust are held in the name of a trustee but go directly to the beneficiary, who has a right to both the assets and income of the trust. Transfers into a bare trust may also be exempt from Inheritance Tax, as long as the person making the transfer survives for 7 years after making the transfer.” I shan’t hold my breath for an apology, I’d just ask you to stop listening to advice from your cockatoo.

So Identical to giving directly to the person & waiting 7 years. The trust has not saved ant tax whatsoever.

No need for an apology from myself as your claim "inter vivos trusts absolutely do avoid IHT." it totally untrue.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	So Identical to giving directly to the person & waiting 7 years. The trust has not saved ant tax whatsoever. No need for an apology from myself as your claim "inter vivos trusts absolutely do avoid IHT." it totally untrue.

It’s the inter vivos bit that matters. Not sure where you went to school, but obviously somewhere that didn’t teach Latin. Inter vivos just means between the living. I hope your millions are left tax free for some major public school education for the beneficiary

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	It’s the inter vivos bit that matters. Not sure where you went to school, but obviously somewhere that didn’t teach Latin. Inter vivos just means between the living. I hope your millions are left tax free for some major public school education for the beneficiary

The trust has not saved a single penny of tax, a gift 7 years before death is free from IHT, the inter vivos bit is totally irrelevant as you should be able to understand.

[Sky]

Driving up the M1 this morning, there was a highlight sign over the motorway:

Driving to the EU
New docs
Nov 1

😶

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The trust has not saved a single penny of tax, a gift 7 years before death is free from IHT, the inter vivos bit is totally irrelevant as you should be able to understand.

I never said any different. You said that trusts don’t save on IHT, so I gave you an example of a trust that did.

Case closed, sorry, QED.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I never said any different. You said that trusts don’t save on IHT, so I gave you an example of a trust that did. Case closed, sorry, QED.

	Quote:
	https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...dance-package/ One wonders why certain elements seem hell bent on getting out of the EU so quickly...Oh wait... "The member states have to implement the directive in their national law by 1 January 2020."

It has saved zero tax, it's tax neutral.

So what is your actual point of the rich needing to leave the EU by 1 Jan 2020 ?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It has saved zero tax, it's tax neutral. So what is your actual point of the rich needing to leave the EU by 1 Jan 2020 ?

One of the pillars of the above law is a crackdown on aggressive tax planning.

Another is funnelling money abroad to avoid tax. Nobody in the cabinet would dream of that.

Where do the right wing newspapers (and the graun, I think) base their companies and where do the owners live and not pay tax?

It’s all pretty obvious, innit?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	One of the pillars of the above law is a crackdown on aggressive tax planning. Another is funnelling money abroad to avoid tax. Nobody in the cabinet would dream of that. Where do the right wing newspapers (and the graun, I think) base their companies and where do the owners live and not pay tax? It’s all pretty obvious, innit?

There is no tax planning or tax avoidance in your example.
UK now has a facilitation of tax evasion for companies, far more than any EU laws.

If the owners live abroad, they won't have a UK personal tax liability.

Having a foreign registered company won't effect a UK taxpayer as dividend's & capital gains are taxed in the UK anyway.

All tax neutral, you have yet to show anything that avoids tax.