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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #23801  
Old 26.10.2019, 16:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Are you able to disprove what is generally accepted as what happened with regards to the vote?
You wrote;
"When looking at the referendum result by social grade, lower social grade groups voted to leave while the higher ones voted to remain."

It's entirely up to you to define the 'social grades' you refer to, and to prove that these were used as a measure to quantify the referendum result. You've repeatedly failed to offer a single link, explanation, example or evidence for your claim along with evidence that your claim is 'generally accepted'. Amongst whom (?) for example. The onus is upon you to clarify and quantify your statement in order to legitimise it.
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  #23802  
Old 26.10.2019, 16:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You wrote;
"When looking at the referendum result by social grade, lower social grade groups voted to leave while the higher ones voted to remain."

It's entirely up to you to define the 'social grades' you refer to, and to prove that these were used as a measure to quantify the referendum result. You've repeatedly failed to offer a single link, explanation, example or evidence for your claim along with evidence that your claim is 'generally accepted'. Amongst whom (?) for example. The onus is upon you to clarify and quantify your statement in order to legitimise it.
It's the euivalent of Trump's new English: "Many people don't know that" and "lots of people say ...."

You just gotta believe it, blueangel, lots of people do
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  #23803  
Old 26.10.2019, 16:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You just gotta believe it, blueangel, lots of people do
Like those facebook posts that say 'I bet you can't name a capital city beginning with A' and a few hundred thousand people answer with Amsterdam and Athens.
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  #23804  
Old 26.10.2019, 17:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Like those facebook posts that say 'I bet you can't name a capital city beginning with A' and a few hundred thousand people answer with Amsterdam and Athens.
Abu Dhabi, Abuja, Accra, Addis Ababa, Algiers, Amman
I will go and get my coat now!
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  #23805  
Old 26.10.2019, 18:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There is no tax planning or tax avoidance in your example.
UK now has a facilitation of tax evasion for companies, far more than any EU laws.

If the owners live abroad, they won't have a UK personal tax liability.
How much is due if they live domestically?

Let's say we both reside in London and are fully taxed by the UK. You give £1mln to me, how much tax is due on that, and when?
  #23806  
Old 26.10.2019, 18:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Which proves you have no argument & you admit to being a conman
Oh FMF...

Had the Grosvenor estate bequeathed to the new Duke of Westminster been liable for 40% inheritance tax, the amount owed to the Treasury would have been not far off the government’s entire death duty take for the last financial year.
Hugh Grosvenor, however, avoids a significant cut to his £9bn inheritance because the estate is held in a trust.
Britain’s generous trust law ensures that the country’s largest fortunes are largely kept intact. This is borne out by statistics which show that duties are a modest source of revenue for the Treasury. HMRC collected total tax of £534bn in 2015-16, of which inheritance tax receipts represented £4.7bn.

You were saying?
  #23807  
Old 26.10.2019, 19:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Oh FMF...

Had the Grosvenor estate bequeathed to the new Duke of Westminster been liable for 40% inheritance tax, the amount owed to the Treasury would have been not far off the government’s entire death duty take for the last financial year.
Hugh Grosvenor, however, avoids a significant cut to his £9bn inheritance because the estate is held in a trust.
Britain’s generous trust law ensures that the country’s largest fortunes are largely kept intact. This is borne out by statistics which show that duties are a modest source of revenue for the Treasury. HMRC collected total tax of £534bn in 2015-16, of which inheritance tax receipts represented £4.7bn.

You were saying?
The trust has to pay tax 6% of the value of the estate every 10 years, it's not a tax free transfer as you imply.
Of course in CH depending on canton there can be zero tax paid on death to direct line heirs. Some EU countries have 0% regardless of who inherits.

You have to remember this is a very old trust, a new trust would pay an additional 20% when its set up in the first place.

How does leaving the EU benefit the Grosvenor estate in any way? Not al all is the answer.

UK & Ireland have the highest inheritance taxes in the EU.
  #23808  
Old 26.10.2019, 19:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I watched this leak to the FT spreading last night and if you have social media away from here, this is something people need to be absolutely clear on. FT have deliberately not put it behind their usual firewall.
Quote:
The British government is planning to diverge from the EU on regulation and workers’ rights after Brexit, despite its pledge to maintain a “level playing field” in prime minister Boris Johnson’s deal, according to an official paper shared by ministers this week.
Of course they do. Why else would one object to being subject to EU regulations and ECJ rulings?

Plus, an FTA with the USA is extremely unlikely without significant reductions in food standards as the US will want to include the agricultural sector.
  #23809  
Old 26.10.2019, 22:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You wrote;
"When looking at the referendum result by social grade, lower social grade groups voted to leave while the higher ones voted to remain."

It's entirely up to you to define the 'social grades' you refer to, and to prove that these were used as a measure to quantify the referendum result. You've repeatedly failed to offer a single link, explanation, example or evidence for your claim along with evidence that your claim is 'generally accepted'. Amongst whom (?) for example. The onus is upon you to clarify and quantify your statement in order to legitimise it.
If you are curious as to the meaning of “social grades” in the UK then you can use google. It’s not up to me to take you by the hand and show you what they are. Once you’ve found that out, you can then do a search for “Brexit result by social grade” and you’ll find lots of nice results giving a breakdown of which social classes voted for remain and leave. There’s some margin for error of course, but there are organisations willing to pay a lot of money to ensure this data is accurate. Do report back if you find any of them not agreeing with what I said with regards to lower income groups tending to vote for leave.

You know all this of course, and you’re not actually interested in what I said. This is the tiresome aspect in online discussion. I made a perfectly reasonable statement, but rather than trying to refute it, you’d prefer to try and catch me out by having me breakdown and explain every word in its minutest detail. Well sorry, I don’t play this game.
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  #23810  
Old 27.10.2019, 00:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You know all this of course, and you’re not actually interested in what I said. This is the tiresome aspect in online discussion. I made a perfectly reasonable statement, but rather than trying to refute it, you’d prefer to try and catch me out by having me breakdown and explain every word in its minutest detail. Well sorry, I don’t play this game.
I'm being perfectly reasonable in asking that you cite your source for reference. When I google the term you specified it gave @ 11,800,000 results with various extrapolations, so I'm still none the wiser as to which information you're referring to, thus I cannot debate it. Even the term 'social grades' has several classification systems in the UK, and you haven't indicated which of those you are using as your reference point.

You've made a statement and framed it as a fact and/or "perfectly reasonable". All I'm asking is what makes you believe it to be so?
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  #23811  
Old 27.10.2019, 02:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Those lets play dirty rotten Tory Brexit scoundrels

Leaked government Brexit papers confirm Labour and Trade Unionists worst fears of Tory plans to
dilute workers rights in the UK after Brexit.

BBC News - Brexit fears over workers rights confirmed say Labour
  #23812  
Old 27.10.2019, 02:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You wrote;
"When looking at the referendum result by social grade, lower social grade groups voted to leave while the higher ones voted to remain."

It's entirely up to you to define the 'social grades' you refer to, and to prove that these were used as a measure to quantify the referendum result. You've repeatedly failed to offer a single link, explanation, example or evidence for your claim along with evidence that your claim is 'generally accepted'. Amongst whom (?) for example. The onus is upon you to clarify and quantify your statement in order to legitimise it.

Hi Blueangel,


Sorry to be late responding to this (although I'd already mentioned one of the references below in post 23203).


(Apols also for responding - ie with links - to a question you'd asked of someone else!)



################################################## ###################
Publication: "Who voted for Brexit?"
Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...76268018301320

Notable quote (page 10):
"[...]we find that respondents who receive core benefits have a significantly raised probability of supporting Leave compared to those receiving none. [...] In addition, people dissatisfied with health and income have a higher probability of supporting Leave by 5.5% and 6.4%, respectively."

Otherwise stated (in the Daily Mail style): "Shock finding: Benefits scroungers support Leave."

################################################## ###################
Publication: "Who voted for Brexit? A comprehensive district-level analysis"
https://academic.oup.com/economicpol...92/601/4459491

Notable quote (p1)
"We analyse vote and turnout shares across 380 local authority areas in the United Kingdom. We find that exposure to the EU in terms of immigration and trade provides relatively little explanatory power for the referendum vote.

Instead, we find that fundamental characteristics of the voting population were key drivers of the Vote Leave share, in particular their education profiles, their historical dependence on manufacturing employment as well as low income and high unemployment. At the much finer level of wards within cities, we find that areas with deprivation in terms of education, income and employment were more likely to vote Leave.
"

Notable quote (p26):
"The well-established literature studying the economic implications of migration on labour market outcomes supports the notion that there are distributional consequences of low-skilled migration putting pressure on wages for low-skilled natives [...]. Migration from Eastern Europe, predominantly of low-skilled workers, affected areas with a lower-skilled resident population. As we will see below, low skills correlate with a larger Vote Leave share."

I don't deny the obvious selection bias in my choice of quotes, but of course all readers are free to delve into those publications and draw their own conclusions (I also admit that I have not studied either document from cover to cover). That said, I find the above quite interesting with respect to the supposed 'meeting of minds' between the likes of Rees-Mogg/Johnson (and other members of the well-heeled 'Elite') and the general population.

As far as I can tell, there are all sorts of reasons that the very-wealthy should wish to exit the EU, to form a 'free-fire' economic zone, but suspect that those reasons are wholly unrelated to the concerns of the far greater number of citizens who have not done so well out of the liberalisation of pretty much everything over the last 30+ years, largely - but not exclusively - thanks to the Tories.

Given that we live (ostensibly) in a democracy, the elites' problem was simple: given their numerical inferiority, how to garner enough referendum votes to break free from the constraints of current (and future) EU legislation which might constrain their 'wealth-creation' (for which, read: "Tax Avoidance") opportunities?

Their answer would appear to be to convince those cited above to vote naively in favour of Leave, by convincing them that their parochial (but very real) problems would be solved by abstracting the entire nation away from a distant and unaccountable bureaucracy, under the fear that things would only get worse for them if they didn't. Frankly who's to blame the vast number of people who did so?

What's missing from the whole discussion is some fairly simple, but important, questions. For example, if "low-skilled" immigrants threaten "lower-skilled" indigenous workers, then 1) why are our workers so unskilled; and 2) exactly how will leaving the EU upskill those indigenous workers?

History is plagued by mischaracterisations and Machiavellian mistruths; this is just the most recent.

Turkeys voting for Christmas.


Cheers,
auto
  #23813  
Old 27.10.2019, 02:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Leaked government Brexit papers confirm Labour and Trade Unionists worst fears of Tory plans to dilute workers rights in the UK after Brexit.
When challenged on workers' rights the other day, the PM made a point of saying the UK will have workers' rights way above what the EU state. Thing is, we always have had. The EU only sets minimum reqirements, leaving each member state completely free to set their own levels above that minimum.

Even so, the UK has long been behind Hungary with regards to maternity pay and leave, though that was largely down to their government policy to tackle the falling birthrate, but now it's Estonia that offers the best maternity leave.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8956731.html

The UK also has the longest working week, and opposed to Greece which has the longest working hours.
https://www.lexology.com/library/det...3-523daf192c4a

Something to really look out for is minimum annual leave seeing as the EU minimum is 4 weeks paid leave, yet all annula leave in the US is at the discretion of the employer and not defined in law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ave_by_country
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  #23814  
Old 27.10.2019, 03:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When challenged on workers' rights the other day, the PM made a point of saying the UK will have workers' rights way above what the EU state. Thing is, we always have had. The EU only sets minimum reqirements, leaving each member state completely free to set their own levels above that minimum.
So after BREXIT, the current plan is to have zero tariffs on most imports and in accordance with WTO rules that will apply to all members... materials and infrastructure costs will not change, so which one will come under pressure with competition from low cost imports???

After BREXIT, the UK will loose preferential access to a rich market accounting for 48% of its exports and will become a third country competing with other third countries, many with much lower cost structures, so guess which cost factor is going to take the hit....

The typical BREXITEERS are about to get screwed by the man, big time... Labour’s socialist republic might just have a small chance in the next 10 years or so....
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  #23815  
Old 27.10.2019, 15:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

From Blueangel's links

Quote:
EU employment law protects the rights of workers across the EU. However, these laws often operate differently in different member states as most EU employment law is created at EU level and is then brought into national law by each member state
Areas covered by EU law include:
Working time, part-time and fixed-term work
Protection from discrimination, the protection of pregnant workers and equal pay rights
Informing and consulting workers on workplace issues, including collective redundancies and business transfers
Protection of employees' rights on a business transfer
Protection of personal data
Yep, I'm super OK with that.
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  #23816  
Old 27.10.2019, 16:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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How much is due if they live domestically?

Let's say we both reside in London and are fully taxed by the UK. You give £1mln to me, how much tax is due on that, and when?
Well on the disposal of an asset there is a CGT charge, that would be 28% on residual property.

A property with a 1982 Value of £ 250,000
That property today it's market value £4,250,000

CGT payable on disposal of a gift of the house £1,120.000
IHT Payable if death occurs in sat 18 months £1,700,000

IHT payable if death occurs in 10 years time £0

Just give it to the kids they say, not realising there is a CGT charge on disposals given away.

Relationship has zero effect on tax payable except Husband & Wife assuming the are both UK Domiciled. (Domicile in the UK sense, not where you live)
  #23817  
Old 27.10.2019, 16:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Oh FMF...

Had the Grosvenor estate bequeathed to the new Duke of Westminster been liable for 40% inheritance tax, the amount owed to the Treasury would have been not far off the government’s entire death duty take for the last financial year.
Hugh Grosvenor, however, avoids a significant cut to his £9bn inheritance because the estate is held in a trust.
Britain’s generous trust law ensures that the country’s largest fortunes are largely kept intact. This is borne out by statistics which show that duties are a modest source of revenue for the Treasury. HMRC collected total tax of £534bn in 2015-16, of which inheritance tax receipts represented £4.7bn.

You were saying?
You have to realise that the government did this deal, in doing so they will get more money.
1)As you probably know IHT needs to be paid before any assets are sold. Good luck finding a Bank to advance £4 billion unsecured to pay a tax bill.
2) Fire selling £4 billion of property in a very small area would probably yield £1 billion, possibly less.

Property is an illiquid asset, a valuation is a guess a sale is a fact. This would be a Neil Woodford situation, Price discovery can be a very rude awakening, HMRC know this & did a deal where they can be paid without collapsing the value of the assets being taxed.
  #23818  
Old 27.10.2019, 16:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Sounds to me like the aristocracy is shafting the working man.

What is to be done with them?
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  #23819  
Old 27.10.2019, 16:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You have to realise that the government did this deal, in doing so they will get more money.
1)As you probably know IHT needs to be paid before any assets are sold. Good luck finding a Bank to advance £4 billion unsecured to pay a tax bill.
2) Fire selling £4 billion of property in a very small area would probably yield £1 billion, possibly less.

Property is an illiquid asset, a valuation is a guess a sale is a fact. This would be a Neil Woodford situation, Price discovery can be a very rude awakening, HMRC know this & did a deal where they can be paid without collapsing the value of the assets being taxed.
So one rule for the mega rich, and another for Joe Schmo. Isn't that what I've been saying all along and you've been denying?

Why would any assets have to be sold incidentally? Easy enough to get them valued and Mr Taxman takes 40% of the title deeds. Job done.

Wonder what will happen if our folks are unable to get their properties shifted - do you think the taxman will cut us a deal?
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Old 27.10.2019, 16:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sounds to me like the aristocracy is shafting the working man.

What is to be done with them?
Let them distribute cake.

Followed by the historical consequences.
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