The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Why should people who have not lived in the country for over 15 years feel they have a right to dictate to those who actually live in the country day in and day out who they have to live? After 15 years you’ve made your choice. I lost the right to vote in Irish elections after 12 months and I’ve never felt I should have a right to decide how they live over there, just because I might return some day. As far as I’m concerned they are the ones that live there so they should decide how the country is run.

They will mostly be UK domiciled & liable to UK IHT on their world wide assets at death. Taxation without representation whilst a citizen.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Seems fair - You can contribute to the tax pot for 2 years before getting a vote, so you can also not vote for the last 2 years.

If liability to UK taxation ended at 67, I would be happy with your proposal.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Why 65, thats 2 years before I can get my UK state pension if the don't raise the age again.

You that old already to be worrying about such things ?

[st2lemans]

"a consensus of neuroscientists agree that brain development likely persists until at least the mid-20s – possibly until the 30s"

https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/0...lly-developed/

Tom

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	You were the one who chose to link smoking and drinking alcohol to voting; now you cannot explain your logic?

I clearly linked the ability to buy cigarettes and alcohol (in the UK) to being an adult. The logic is simple and there in black and white to read. If you pay attention and read further you’ll see I only believe adults should be allowed to vote. However you just don’t want to see it and I suspect you’re like the poster the other day who takes pleasure in trying to catch people out rather than argue the point. Trite behaviour that doesn’t warrant me wasting any further time on.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	If liability to UK taxation ended at 67, I would be happy with your proposal.

Well, quite. If you can be taxed, you should be able to vote, that's the long and short of it really.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	"a consensus of neuroscientists agree that brain development likely persists until at least the mid-20s – possibly until the 30s" https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/0...lly-developed/ Tom

32 sounds like a good min age Tom, thanks for the input

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Well, quite. If you can be taxed, you should be able to vote, that's the long and short of it really.

Well I can't vote, yet have a large future UK tax liability.
Reasonably people should be able to vote after 5 years legal residence, If you want to add a rider that they need to have paid tax, I don't have an issue with that.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Well I can't vote, yet have a large future UK tax liability. Reasonably people should be able to vote after 5 years legal residence, If you want to add a rider that they need to have paid tax, I don't have an issue with that.

There does probably have to be a limit to when you can still vote, after x years of absence from the country.

Ideally, people would be honest and self-censoring on this issue - if you're unlikely to return (as is my current plan) - then don't vote. I don't really feel I have too much of a stake in saying the direction the country should go in, if I am no longer a part of it.

As we've discussed elsewhere - if you really want to, you can avoid that UK tax liability - if you become (if you haven't already) domiciled in Malta and divest yourself of all your UK assets, then you aren't going to be owing too much in the future - in fact you won't owe anything, just any recipients domiciled in the UK will!

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I clearly linked the ability to buy cigarettes and alcohol (in the UK) to being an adult. The logic is simple and there in black and white to read. If you pay attention and read further you’ll see I only believe adults should be allowed to vote. However you just don’t want to see it and I suspect you’re like the poster the other day who takes pleasure in trying to catch people out rather than argue the point. Trite behaviour that doesn’t warrant me wasting any further time on.

But what is the logic in your argument?
Why pick cigarettes and alcohol versus other laws like the age of consent is 16 or start driving a car when you're 17 or you cannot adopt children until you are 21?

You just picked two things at random because they conveniently fit what you believe but there is no logic in your choice and no strong argument behind it.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	There does probably have to be a limit to when you can still vote, after x years of absence from the country. Ideally, people would be honest and self-censoring on this issue - if you're unlikely to return (as is my current plan) - then don't vote. I don't really feel I have too much of a stake in saying the direction the country should go in, if I am no longer a part of it. As we've discussed elsewhere - if you really want to, you can avoid that UK tax liability - if you become (if you haven't already) domiciled in Malta and divest yourself of all your UK assets, then you aren't going to be owing too much in the future - in fact you won't owe anything, just any recipients domiciled in the UK will!

I will never be domiciled in Malta as I don't intend it is the country I will die in, moving country reverts to domicile of origin. I have not decided where I will live at death. I have not even taken 'Permanent residence' in Malta like a C permit, I have re applied for ordinary residence like a B permit, there is no way I could have become domiciled in Malta.

Loosing UK domicile is more difficult than you believe, although most people will blag it & have never done a UK tax return, will probably get away with it. HNWI are not so lucky HMRC connect computer knows all about me & my movements.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	You're an Irish citizen living abroad. A proposal pops up in Ireland to tax all Irish citizens at 50% of their worldwide income. You're fine with that, because "they" live there so "they" should decide how the country is run.

Well such a proposal was put forward and rejected on the bases that such citizens have left the country and should not have to fund the country since they are no longer there. And if I don’t like it, it wouldn’t take me about 10 minutes on the department of foreign affairs website to give up my citizenship.

	Quote:
	You're a UK citizen who went to live abroad 20 years ago. For family reasons, you will return in 2021 to live in Britain permanently. A proposal pops up that would affect every resident of the UK. Let "them" decide, you say, as it would have no effect on me... yet.

So on the off chance you might live there some time in the future you think you should be able to make a decision like impact peoples lives on a daily bases... you really think you have a right to make a decision that will cost people their jobs, restrict their rights to do what you did to live and work abroad, see their cost of living go up, pay more taxes or whatever just because you want to come back in 20 years time?

	Quote:
	You're a British citizen living abroad. A proposal pops up in the UK that could jeopardise your right to remain abroad...

You have had 15 years to sort yourself out and formalized your living arrangements. You really expect to hold the country hostage because you did not get your act together.

	Quote:
	Remember. too, that "they" back in the UK includes EU nationals resident in the UK. But resident for how long? Should they have more rights than UK citizens to determine the future of the UK?

Yes they actually should because they are the ones who have to live with your decision day in and day out. In 1984 Ireland voted 75% to grant voting rights to non Irish citizens on the argument that if they live there they should have the same rights to say how the country is run. I guess it’s a culture thing.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	So on the off chance you might live there some time in the future you think you should be able to make a decision like impact peoples lives on a daily bases... you really think you have a right to make a decision that will cost people their jobs, restrict their rights to do what you did to live and work abroad, see their cost of living go up, pay more taxes or whatever just because you want to come back in 20 years time?

Or vote against all that...

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	But what is the logic in your argument? Why pick cigarettes and alcohol versus other laws like the age of consent is 16 or start driving a car when you're 17 or you cannot adopt children until you are 21? You just picked two things at random because they conveniently fit what you believe but there is no logic in your choice and no strong argument behind it.

I used the ability to buy alcohol and cigarettes as an example of why under eighteens are not considered adults. You do know what an example is, right? There are other examples that could have been used, but I chose this one. That’s how examples work. If you insist on being so anally retentive then we can look at the legal definition of a child. The Children Act of 1989 defines a child as someone who is under the age of eighteen.

Now if you want to tell me why you believe children should have the vote then we can start having a conversation. If you wish to tell me which examples of adulthood I can and can’t use then you can get stuffed.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I used the ability to buy alcohol and cigarettes as an example of why under eighteens are not considered adults.

Doesn't that then leave you open to people presenting you with easy examples to the contrary to void your argument, though?

There are plenty of examples of situations (already given in this thread) where the 16+ members of society are defined as de facto adults without having to narrow your field to cigs and booze.

	Quote:
	Doesn't that then leave you open to people presenting you with easy examples to the contrary to void your argument, though? There are plenty of examples of situations (already given in this thread) where the 16+ members of society are defined as adults without having to narrow your field to cigs and booze.

Also, Swiss 16 year olds are adults (can buy booze, and I think fags, unsure) but UK 16 year olds aren't? What if a Swiss 16 year old moves to the UK.

The mind boggles.

	Quote:
	Also, Swiss 16 year olds are adults (can buy booze, and I think fags, unsure) but UK 16 year olds aren't? What if a Swiss 16 year old moves to the UK. The mind boggles.

Actually, in the UK, 16 year olds can consume beer and wine in pubs and restaurants with a meal. I think 16 year olds can buy beer and wine in Switzerland whereas spirits are only available after 18.

Slightly OT - To use your Swiss 16 year old moving to the UK example and flip it to a 16 year old US citizen moving the Switzerland, faced with a selection of beers and wines FIVE years earlier than the legal age in the US - WAHAAAY!

[Ato]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I used the ability to buy alcohol and cigarettes as an example of why under eighteens are not considered adults. You do know what an example is, right? There are other examples that could have been used, but I chose this one. That’s how examples work. If you insist on being so anally retentive then we can look at the legal definition of a child. The Children Act of 1989 defines a child as someone who is under the age of eighteen. Now if you want to tell me why you believe children should have the vote then we can start having a conversation. If you wish to tell me which examples of adulthood I can and can’t use then you can get stuffed.

The childrens act was for the protection of children in care, but it does state that every person under the age of 18 is a child. I find this a far more convincing argument than things people are limited to until they're 18.

The Childrens act specifically mentions that children over 16 who are either independant, in the armed forces and a few other categories are still children.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I used the ability to buy alcohol and cigarettes as an example of why under eighteens are not considered adults. You do know what an example is, right? There are other examples that could have been used, but I chose this one. That’s how examples work. If you insist on being so anally retentive then we can look at the legal definition of a child. The Children Act of 1989 defines a child as someone who is under the age of eighteen. Now if you want to tell me why you believe children should have the vote then we can start having a conversation. If you wish to tell me which examples of adulthood I can and can’t use then you can get stuffed.

And in return, I gave you examples of when children under 18 are considered adults and my examples are, by definition, better than your examples
There is also the extreme example that the age of criminal responsibility in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is 10 years old.

The age of majority for children in England and Wales varies; there are many age-related rules that distinguish between children of different ages for different purposes.
Children can leave school at age 16, work and pay taxes so they have every right to vote!

[Ato]

	Quote:	marton
	There is also the extreme example that the age of criminal responsibility in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is 10 years old. !

Just to point out that even though criminally responsible, they are tried differently until they are 18. Different courts, sentences and prisons.