The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

Amber Rudd to step down as MP

!!

[3Wishes]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Why should people who have not lived in the country for over 15 years feel they have a right to dictate to those who actually live in the country day in and day out who they have to live? After 15 years you’ve made your choice. I lost the right to vote in Irish elections after 12 months and I’ve never felt I should have a right to decide how they live over there, just because I might return some day. As far as I’m concerned they are the ones that live there so they should decide how the country is run.

If Brexit has proven anything, it's that voting is about more than just "how they live over there". Your basic rights as a citizen can be changed without you having any input. That doesn't seem okay to me.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	...So on the off chance you might live there some time in the future you think you should be able to make a decision like impact peoples lives on a daily bases... you really think you have a right to make a decision that will cost people their jobs, restrict their rights to do what you did to live and work abroad, see their cost of living go up, pay more taxes or whatever just because you want to come back in 20 years time? You have had 15 years to sort yourself out and formalized your living arrangements. You really expect to hold the country hostage because you did not get your act together...

Flip it around though. Just because a person lives in the UK they're somehow more entitled to make decisions that will impact their fellow citizens who live abroad?

I can sort of see that someone who hasn't lived in the home country for 15 years probably doesn't have any need to vote in local council elections, but surely on an issue as big as Brexit, a person should have a say in a referendum that directly impacts their citizenship rights - no matter where they live.

[curley]

	Quote:	3Wishes
	....... Flip it around though. Just because a person lives in the UK they're somehow more entitled to make decisions that will impact their fellow citizens who live abroad? I can sort of see that someone who hasn't lived in the home country for 15 years probably doesn't have any need to vote in local council elections, but surely on an issue as big as Brexit, a person should have a say in a referendum that directly impacts their citizenship rights - no matter where they live.

I'd agree that something like Brexit consideres ALL Britains and they should all vote about it.
It's a bit like abolishing the queen (okay, the royal system I mean of course). It's a major decision.

But then again of of couse I agree. I can vote from where ever I live in the world, which means I'm biased.

[bowlie]

It appears that the Canadian Supreme Court has it’s own views. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/0...ts_a_23640412/

	Quote:
	OTTAWA — A law that stripped Canadians of their voting rights if they lived outside the country for more than five years was unconstitutional, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled Friday. More than one million Canadians living abroad were affected by the rule, which had been in place for 25 years before it was repealed in December. "Any salutary effects of ensuring electoral fairness are clearly outweighed by the deleterious effects of disenfranchising non-resident Canadians who are abroad for five years or more," wrote Chief Justice Richard Wagner in the judgment. Wagner called the benefits of the legislation that barred long-term expatriates from voting "illusory and speculative." He added that it is "unclear how the fairness of the electoral system is enhanced when long-term non-resident citizens are denied the right to vote." Kate Oja, counsel with the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, said the decision "reinforces the right to vote as a fundamental right and the cornerstone of democracy – not something that Canadians must earn from the government." The BCCCLA was an intervener in the case. The majority 5-2 decision stems from a Charter case involving two Canadians who claimed their rights were violated after discovering they could not vote in the 2011 election on the basis of residency — both men had lived outside of Canada for more than five years.

	Quote:	bowlie
	It appears that the Canadian Supreme Court has it’s own views. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/0...ts_a_23640412/

Ironically, the Brexit vision is to mimic Canada/Norway/Switzerland, all of which allows expats to vote without a time limit.

Oops..!

[3Wishes]

	Quote:	curley
	...I can vote from where ever I live in the world, which means I'm biased.

So can I, and I realize I'm biased too. When I first read that UK citizens can lose the right to vote just because they live abroad too long, I was floored.

[John William]

	Quote:	22 yards
	A potential consequence of Brexit is dramatically increased prices for alcohol and tobacco, making these unaffordable for 16-year-olds who will rapidly become the most level-headed members of society and will be given the right to vote.

I wonder what impact it will have on Brits Duty Free trips to France for alchohol and tobacco ?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Doesn't that then leave you open to people presenting you with easy examples to the contrary to void your argument, though?

If you wish to be a nause and void an argument that wasn’t being made, then yes it does leave one open.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you wish to be a nause and void an argument that wasn’t being made, then yes it does leave one open.

So you weren't arguing that that under 18s shouldn't vote? Should vote?

[curley]

	Quote:	John William
	I wonder what impact it will have on Brits Duty Free trips to France for alchohol and tobacco ?

Not much to wonder about. Amounts will be limited, taxes will be charged for going over these limits, fines for trying to smuggle them.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	curley
	Not much to wonder about. Amounts will be limited, taxes will be charged for going over these limits, fines for trying to smuggle them.

Just as the case in Switzerland.

[curley]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Just as the case in Switzerland.

Right, guess how I knew

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you wish to be a nause and void an argument that wasn’t being made, then yes it does leave one open.

That's a very nuanced turn of phrase. I can count on one hand the number of EF members who've ever used it.

	Quote:	marton
	The age of majority for children in England and Wales varies; there are many age-related rules that distinguish between children of different ages for different purposes. Children can leave school at age 16, work and pay taxes so they have every right to vote!

I'm in total agreement with the concept of adult priviliges being given in a staggered fashion rather than all in one fell swoop. The methodology tends to be giving the harmless ones first, gradually leading to the more potentially harmful or consequential ones. Hence, whilst a 16yr old can join the armed forces, they cannot be sent into active service until they're 18.

Last night, when this potential amendment was announced, my OH immediately said "They'd better not give them credit too."

I voted in a GE 3 months after my 18th birthday, but under the current FTPA, any 16yr olds given the vote in the next year, would have to wait (in theory) until they're 20 to vote in a GE, so they have time to practice with local elections first.

As for the GE, as of the last couple of hours with Sir Alan Duncan's announcement, there are 55 sitting MPs who've announced that they won't be standing for re-election. No matter what happens, there's going to be a sea change.

[Ato]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	That's a very nuanced turn of phrase. I can count on one hand the number of EF members who've ever used it.

I'll be honest and say I've never heard it before, I even thought it might be a spelling error gone wrong from nonce. If you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have bothered looking it up. Having now done so I can't see how it fits in the conversation.
Well you learn something new every day, even if it is a sentence I've never seen and will in all probability never use.

[Blueangel]

Just an idea for the GE, I'd like to see facts based party leaders debates in the style of QI where the klaxon sounds and the inaccurate answer given flashes up on the screen if a lie is told. They could have the guys from Led By Donkeys posting each MPs tweets in a side screen and fullfacts.org doing the adjudication.

https://fullfact.org/

Oh yes! All day in PMQT, Boris refused to answer any question, but deflected with nonsense and personal attacks on JC. About secret meetings with Trump's teams re privatisation of NHS - when he promised it was 'off table'. Answer the question asked- or be cut off.

Yesterday we drove past a French village called 'Struth' and thought, ain't that just so

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you wish to be a nause and void an argument that wasn’t being made, then yes it does leave one open.

The first time ever that I can agree with you; you did not make the argument.

[fatmanfilms]

Both Jersey & the Isle of Man seem to manage not being in the EU, both heavy on financial services like London.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	So you weren't arguing that that under 18s shouldn't vote? Should vote?

Imagine the outcry when child allowance is stopped on the 16th Birthday, parents won't be able to claim a tax deductions for their young Adults & potentially higher council tax for single parents.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Imagine the outcry when child allowance is stopped on the 16th Birthday, parents won't be able to claim a tax deductions for their young Adults & potentially higher council tax for single parents.

What’s that got to do with eligibility or suitability to vote?