The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH - Page 1208

k_and_e · #**24141** 31.10.2019, 16:02

	Quote:	3Wishes
	And yet I have the impression people hate Corbyn even more, so it's quite possible the Conservatives/Johnson will not only maintain power, but perhaps pick up enough seats to push through a no deal Brexit after the election. It sucks when your options as a voter are "really terrible" vs "slightly less terrible".

Reminds me of the US. Main difference is that the UK at least have candidates in an age which kind of guarantees that they survive the term.

curley · #**24142** 31.10.2019, 16:04

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Reminds me of the US. Main difference is that the UK at least have candidates in an age which kind of guarantees that they survive the term.

But - is that an advantage?

#**24143** 31.10.2019, 16:09

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Reminds me of the US. Main difference is that the UK at least have candidates in an age which kind of guarantees that they survive the term.

Who knows how long a term is these days though! We seem to have an election fetish at the moment.

k_and_e · #**24144** 31.10.2019, 16:20

	Quote:	curley
	But - is that an advantage?

So you basically vote for the best vice president...

3Wishes · #**24145** 31.10.2019, 16:30

	Quote:	curley
	I meant nobody mentioned it on here.

Sure, Blueangel did back in post #22227 (emphasis mine):

	Quote:	Blueangel
	As expected and hoped for... https://news.sky.com/story/live-john...ction-11805412 Edit: And Bercow is standing down as Speaker!

Not that I blame you or anyone else for not remembering something a few thousand posts back.

Blueangel · #**24146** 31.10.2019, 16:31

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	There isn’t a single scientist in the Shadow Cabinet either.... ... In fact if you look across the House of Commons I would confidently estimate that less than 10% of MPs hold science, technology or engineering degrees.

Can't believe you missed Valerie Vaz out of your assumption...

Valerie Vaz - Shadow Leader of the House - B.Sc. (Hons) Biochemistry

Dan Carden - B.Sc. International Relations
Tony Lloyd - B.Sc. Maths

My party only has 19 MPs, but of those, no less than 9 fit your parameters:
Heidi Allen - B.Sc. degree in astrophysics
Jo Swinson - first-class Bachelor of Science degree in Management
Jamie Stone - History and Geology
Layla Moran - B.Sc. Physics. Was a maths and physics teacher at the International School of Brussels
Dr. Phillip Lee - B.Sc. Human Biology and Biological Anthropology. Went on to study medicine
Ed Davey - M.Sc. Economics
Vince Cable - PhD degree in Economics
Tom Brake - BSc in Physics
Dr. Sarah Wollaston - B.Sc. Medicine

You really are adverse to facts, aren't you?

Blueangel · #**24147** 31.10.2019, 16:43

	Quote:
	I think this is a bit of a media confection, getting the Pavlovian juices of Middle England flowing with the constant baseless accusations of being a terrorist (/terrorist sympathizer), anti-Semite, Commie who wants to rule over us like Stalin; when the reality is he probably just wants a few more workers' rights, a bit more wealth distribution and a bit more social mobility.

I'm most definitely not middle-England, but I'm old enough to remember the many dubious decisions he made in the 80s and early 90s. Mo Mowlam got the tone right when dealing with the IRA. Corbyn definitely didn't. The accusations were not baseless and I remember them at the time. I don't doubt he had better intentions than are commonly portrayed, but his judgement, timing and actions were nothing short of horrendous. He was also firmly linked to the SWP who were the bane of every union rep in the country who had to fight off their illegal flying pickets, in my case, literally fight them off. Add to that his actions in the coup attempt against Kinnock which consigned the UK to a further 9yrs of Tory rule... Nah. I had a belly full of him 30yrs ago and he hasn't matured with age.

#**24148** 31.10.2019, 16:47

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I'm most definitely not middle-England, but I'm old enough to remember the many dubious decisions he made in the 80s and early 90s. Mo Mowlam got the tone right when dealing with the IRA. Corbyn definitely didn't. The accusations were not baseless and I remember them at the time. I don't doubt he had better intentions than are commonly portrayed, but his judgement, timing and actions were nothing short of horrendous. He was also firmly linked to the SWP who were the bane of every union rep in the country who had to fight off their illegal flying pickets, in my case, literally fight them off. Add to that his actions in the coup attempt against Kinnock which consigned the UK to a further 9yrs of Tory rule... Nah. I had a belly full of him 30yrs ago and he hasn't matured with age.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on this, but whatever they are, I would suggest the right-wing media has at best "overblown" his previous positions. It was sitting down and talking to leaders of the IRA (and other interested parties of course), which very few other people seemed interested in, that eventually brought about the GFA, for example.

Blueangel · #**24149** 31.10.2019, 16:55

	Quote:
	Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on this, but whatever they are, I would suggest the right-wing media has at best "overblown" his previous positions.

I don't read the right wing media, but I remember very clearly the almighty stink Corbyn caused by inviting convicted IRA members to visit the HoC a few weeks after the Brighton bombing. That was a very long way beyond the pale. You can fact check that all day.

#**24150** 31.10.2019, 16:57

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I don't read the right wing media, but I remember very clearly the almighty stink Corbyn caused by inviting convicted IRA members to visit the HoC a few weeks after the Brighton bombing. That was a very long way beyond the pale. You can fact check that all day.

I'm not disputing it! I think we've all come to the conclusion that rehabilitation is better in the long run than punishment though

Dehumanising and disenfranchising people never works.

Ato · #**24151** 31.10.2019, 17:03

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I don't read the right wing media, but I remember very clearly the almighty stink Corbyn caused by inviting convicted IRA members to visit the HoC a few weeks after the Brighton bombing. That was a very long way beyond the pale. You can fact check that all day.

This feels like the last US election again, there's someone you don't want to vote for, and someone you won't vote for. I just can't understand why one of the two doesn't step aside for the sake of their party.

Is the use of beyond the pale a reference to the bombers homeground?

fatmanfilms · #**24152** 31.10.2019, 17:12

Lowering the voting age to 18

Back, in the ’60s, before the Monster Raving Loony Party existed in its current incarnation, founding Loony “Screaming” Lord Sutch stood as a candidate for his National Teenage Party – their key policy was lowering the voting age from 21 to 18.

Votes for 18 year olds were introduced in 1969.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/usvsth3m/7-...0noiUft4eJe2_A

TonyClifton · #**24153** 31.10.2019, 17:14

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Can't believe you missed Valerie Vaz out of your assumption... Valerie Vaz - Shadow Leader of the House - B.Sc. (Hons) Biochemistry Dan Carden - B.Sc. International Relations Tony Lloyd - B.Sc. Maths My party only has 19 MPs, but of those, no less than 9 fit your parameters: Heidi Allen - B.Sc. degree in astrophysics Jo Swinson - first-class Bachelor of Science degree in Management Jamie Stone - History and Geology Layla Moran - B.Sc. Physics. Was a maths and physics teacher at the International School of Brussels Dr. Phillip Lee - B.Sc. Human Biology and Biological Anthropology. Went on to study medicine Ed Davey - M.Sc. Economics Vince Cable - PhD degree in Economics Tom Brake - BSc in Physics Dr. Sarah Wollaston - B.Sc. Medicine You really are adverse to facts, aren't you?

You really want to go so far down the list? One could argue the influence that the Shadow Leader of the House has on Labour’s Brexit policy, however it’s simpler just to point out that Alok Sharma, the international development secretary and cabinet member, has a degree in Physics. So your statement that there are no scientists in Boris Johnson’s cabinet is factually wrong.

I’ve never known such a finicky responses over detail. There could be a conversation over why so few scientists are MPs, or whether scientists would make better MPs.

fatmanfilms · #**24154** 31.10.2019, 17:14

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Out of interest FMF, what's groanworthy about that post?

You asked, this was what I was groaning at

	Quote:	Blueangel
	All very childish and sloppy.

Blueangel · #**24155** 31.10.2019, 17:17

	Quote:
	I'm not disputing it! I think we've all come to the conclusion that rehabilitation is better in the long run than punishment though Dehumanising and disenfranchising people never works.

The Tory gov position on the IRA was a complicated one. There were long running secret talks between the two with the aim of ending hostilities. You could argue that the likes of Corbyn and his grandstanding repeatedly exasperated those talks. Let's just say...I'm minding my language and biting my tongue a hell of a lot in this post. When he's right (in the House), I'll say he's right. Other than that, you'll probably never get a good word about him out of me.

The majority of Labour MPs are good, decent people and I'll happily listen to them all day, just not him. As for NI, a lot of the move towards peace came from incredibly brave people such as Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan and their Women for Peace movement. Those people, along with Mo Mowlam, are heroes, not the likes of Corbyn.

fatmanfilms · #**24156** 31.10.2019, 17:19

	Quote:
	Mixing Brexit and election is nonsense, I have to agree with Blair: https://www.facebook.com/Channel4New...4270975930701/

Since the current set of MP's are clearly unable to honour the result of the referendum in the event leave wins, a change of MP's is required.

MP's are supposed to do what their electorate asked them to do, both major parties said they would uphold the result of the referendum & have failed to do as promised. Not clear if the electorate is clever enough to have noticed or not, we will see when the votes are counted?

Why are you so worried about having a general election?

Ato · #**24157** 31.10.2019, 17:19

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You really want to go so far down the list? One could argue the influence that the Shadow Leader of the House has on Labour’s Brexit policy, however it’s simpler just to point out that Alok Sharma, the international development secretary and cabinet member, has a degree in Physics. So your statement that there are no scientists in Boris Johnson’s cabinet is factually wrong. I’ve never known such a finicky responses over detail. There could be a conversation over why so few scientists are MPs, or whether scientists would make better MPs.

Or you could say, "sorry, my mistake, I must have missed Valerie Vaz in my statement of there isn't a single scientist in the shadow cabinet"

Blueangel · #**24158** 31.10.2019, 17:20

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You asked, this was what I was groaning at

Why? Do you not find it sloppy work to not tie up all the loose ends of an amendment to an International Treaty?

fatmanfilms · #**24159** 31.10.2019, 17:22

	Quote:
	You're making no sense. At all.

It could be argued that only people paying the bills should vote on how the money is spent.
If you are not contributing & have never worked your interests are not aligned with the majority of the population.

Blueangel · #**24160** 31.10.2019, 17:24

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	however it’s simpler just to point out that Alok Sharma, the international development secretary and cabinet member, has a degree in Physics

My mistake. I stand corrected. (It's BSc in Applied Physics with Electronics).