The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[IronAngle]

	Quote:
	In this case, many of the 48% minority are fighting to have the legitimacy and integrity of their nation's political system maintained and made free from the outside influence of hostile governments.

The irony of it all

[marton]

	Quote:	IronAngle
	It's not exactly unwilling if the people voted to leave. You will say that you didn't vote leave, however the majority did and in a democracy that's what counts.

Problem is that nobody knew what Brexit was, they were voting for a cat in the sack.

Some few examples;
Nobody painted on the side of a bus "UK citizens living in the EU will become third-country citizens".

Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "the UK's credit rating will fall below third world countries".

Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "There will be almost 4 years of chaos"

Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "There will be a Customs barrier between N. Ireland and the rest of the UK"

Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "Foreign holidays will cost up to 20% more".

&&&&&&

Report on Russian interference - not published

Investigation on Islamophobia - shelved

Arcuri report - shelved.

And when the Financial Times says it :

https://www.ft.com/content/645d8786-...39bkALeX5Gq9kw

	Quote:
	And when the Financial Times says it : https://www.ft.com/content/645d8786-...39bkALeX5Gq9kw

Can you cut and paste a little, or explain, please (not that you need to explain it, lol) as it is behind a pay wall.

I totally agree with the FT headline. The shame for the country when you see the news headlines this morning; these papers are just election support/adverts for the Torys. An utter disgrace of neverending lies.. it's the bully boys' game show. Pure and simple.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	IronAngle
	It's not exactly unwilling if the people voted to leave. You will say that you didn't vote leave, however the majority did and in a democracy that's what counts.

You obviously don’t know what a democracy is! What actually counts in a democracy is that you abide by the agreed democratic processes and you do not get to make them up to suit yourself.

And in the UK that is a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people as you and some others seem to think. That means that referenda in the UK can only ever be advisory and nothing else. After the referendum the voters were given an opportunity to elect a parliament to implement the result of that advisory referendum and they failed to do so. They failed to give a mandate to any party to implement their manifesto and in accordance with British democratic principles that newly elected parliament is not in anyway obligated by the commitments of the previous parliament.

The bottom line is that UK voters voting in the only election that actually counts voted for a BREXIT stalemate, they left it entirely in the hands of parliament what was to happen next. And that is why they are where they are today.

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Can you cut and paste a little, or explain, please (not that you need to explain it, lol) as it is behind a pay wall. I totally agree with the FT headline. The shame for the country when you see the news headlines this morning; these papers are just election support/adverts for the Torys. An utter disgrace of neverending lies.. it's the bully boys' game show. Pure and simple.

Sorry I cannot as I am behind the pay wall- but thought the title stood on its own. Perhaps a subscriber to FT could share?

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You obviously don’t know what a democracy is! What actually counts in a democracy is that you abide by the agreed democratic processes and you do not get to make them up to suit yourself. And in the UK that is a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people as you and some others seem to think. That means that referenda in the UK can only ever be advisory and nothing else. After the referendum the voters were given an opportunity to elect a parliament to implement the result of that advisory referendum and they failed to do so. They failed to give a mandate to any party to implement their manifesto and in accordance with British democratic principles that newly elected parliament is not in anyway obligated by the commitments of the previous parliament. The bottom line is that UK voters voting in the only election that actually counts voted for a BREXIT stalemate, they left it entirely in the hands of parliament what was to happen next. And that is why they are where they are today.

"The Government will implement what you decide.".

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Swisstree
	Can you cut and paste a little, or explain, please (not that you need to explain it, lol) as it is behind a pay wall. I totally agree with the FT headline. The shame for the country when you see the news headlines this morning; these papers are just election support/adverts for the Torys. An utter disgrace of neverending lies.. it's the bully boys' game show. Pure and simple.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft....b-77216ebe1f17

This works without a subscription. Can't seem to copy and paste from phone

	Quote:
	Sorry I cannot as I am behind the pay wall- but thought the title stood on its own. Perhaps a subscriber to FT could share?

Someone kindly sent it to me:

What will she be thinking when he next tips up at Buckingham Palace? Queen Elizabeth II is Britain’s longest reigning monarch. As titular head of state, she has granted regular weekly “audiences” to her prime ministers for 67 years. There have been 14 in all — the first, Winston Churchill, the latest, Boris Johnson. The Queen has not divulged a word from these private encounters. Now she hears that, just two months in office, Mr Johnson has been lying to her.

It is a fair guess that one or two others among the 14 may have occasionally shaded the truth. I wonder if Anthony Eden was entirely honest about the Suez debacle? Mr Johnson, though, has put himself in a class of his own. He stands charged by three senior judges with premeditated deception in persuading the Queen to suspend parliament so he can force through Britain’s departure from the EU on October 31.

This prime minister, of course, is no stranger to mendacity. But lying to Her Majesty? Deceiving someone so widely respected around the world for her probity and commitment to public service? It is hard to think of a sharper collision between mendacity and integrity.

Such is the dark morass into which Mr Johnson’s government has fallen in pursuit of his obsession to meet the Brexit deadline. When MPs were sent home from Westminster for five weeks until mid-October, the official story was that the government needed time to draw up a new legislative programme. Three senior Scottish judges concluded that this was deliberate subterfuge: Mr Johnson’s real objective was to frustrate the efforts of MPs to block his path to a no-deal Brexit. The suspension, the court ruled, was therefore unlawful.

The High Court in London took a different tack. It declined to comment one way or the other on whether Mr Johnson had told the truth. Instead, the English judges said they were being asked to determine matters beyond their competence. It was not for the court to decide on a matter that they deemed to be essentially political.

It has been left to the UK Supreme Court to make a definitive ruling. The prime minister’s desperate hope is that a majority of the 11 chief justices take the non-justiciable path set out by the English court. The damage has been done. You will not find a soul in the long corridors of Whitehall who believes that the prime minister they are sworn to serve is telling the truth.

Two former Conservative prime ministers — John Major and David Cameron — have joined those accusing Mr Johnson of seeking to suppress parliamentary debate. Sir John is among those who made submissions to the Supreme Court to argue that the prorogation was an abuse of power. Mr Cameron, who bears much of the responsibility for the present mess, due to his reckless decision to call the EU referendum in 2016, has used the publication of his memoirs to launch a series of broadsides against Mr Johnson’s habitual lying.

The present prime minister and his fellow Brexiter Michael Gove, Mr Cameron charges, quite simply “left the truth at home” during the 2016 referendum campaign. Back then the three politicians were pals. Mr Cameron now says that Mr Johnson never even believed in Brexit. He embraced the Eurosceptic cause purely to advance his consuming personal ambition by winning favour among Tory Brexiters.

Mr Gove, Mr Cameron adds, promoted the mendacious, and borderline racist, claim that just about the entire population of Turkey would soon be heading for Britain if it voted to remain in the EU. Mr Gove has since been given the job of overseeing Brexit preparations. Contemptuous in 2016 of the views of “experts” worried about the costs of Brexit, he is as dismissive now of advice from his officials about the serious risks of a no-deal departure from the EU.

At this point, some may be tempted to shrug. Put lying to the Queen to one side and fear and loathing among politicians in the same party is hardly new. As for Mr Johnson’s lies, well, no one trusts politicians. What matters is that the government gets on with Brexit, even if it means crashing out of the EU.

As for shutting down parliament, well, MPs were obstructing what Brexiters have solemnly declared to be “the will of the people”. This, of course, is just another falsehood. Of those who voted in the 2016 referendum, some 52 per cent backed Leave. Of those eligible to vote, the proportion was 37 per cent — scarcely the will of the people.

Dry constitutional debates about the respective authority of the government, parliament and the judiciary matter. And the frantic back-stabbing among senior Tories speaks volumes about the truly sorry condition of British Conservatism. Neither should obscure the bigger picture of the damage being inflicted on the nation’s democracy.

The lying reveals a profound disdain for the traditions, institutions and laws that sustain Britain’s parliamentary ecosystem. Whitehall officials say rules of proper behaviour are simply torn up. “We can do as we please,” runs the refrain in Downing Street.

Mr Johnson’s public refusal to say he will uphold the law in all circumstances underpins this contempt. If the government can cheat, it will; Mr Gove’s preference for “listening to the people” over reasoned argument speaks to the same tilt towards demagogy. Strip democracy of trust, self-restraint and shared truths and what remains is a majoritarianism of the mob.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	"The Government will implement what you decide.".

How many times does this have to be repeated before it sinks in?

The government which made that promise was dissolved in May 2017. It's passed on! That government is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
IT IS AN EX-GOVERNMENT!!

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	How many times does this have to be repeated before it sinks in? The government which made that promise was dissolved in May 2017. It's passed on! That government is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! IT IS AN EX-GOVERNMENT!!

The point is that the government didn't implement it but dissolved itself.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The point is that the government didn't implement it but dissolved itself.

Twice!

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	"The Government will implement what you decide.".

Before the last election, May clearly asked for a mandate to implement Brexit. Unfortunately, the voters ignored that and voted without giving her a majority.

So it is no good claiming a majority wanted Brexit when they clearly ignored the best route to getting Brexit. Sometimes people have to take responsibility for their own actions.

[marton]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	"The Government will implement what you decide.".

Even if you do not give the Government a large enough majority to force the decision.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	You will say that you didn't vote leave, however the majority did and in a democracy that's what counts.

No a majority did not. Not a majority of the electorate, nor a majority of the 'people'.

And it was advisory, not binding.

[curley]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Quote:IronAngle With respect, if the expats were so concerned about the prosperity of their country they might not have left to begin with. You can't leave and still expect politics to work in your favour. That's such a peculiar statement. It makes huge assumptions and generalisations about why we have left the UK. This isn't about politics working in our favour. It's about being unwillingly stripped of the rights that other EU citizens benefit from, which becomes a huge issue when those citizens are our partners and family members. It's about giving a damn about the family and friends we still have in the UK. This is the most upsetting and depressing story I've seen coming out of the UK for a while. https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...ime-christmas/

I can not follow your reply here.
Brexit has not happened and GB is still part of the EU while this aid is necessary.
And it's not the expats helping/donating to this food bank.
So what's the relation to Brexit?

	Quote:	IronAngle
	It's not exactly unwilling if the people voted to leave. You will say that you didn't vote leave, however the majority did and in a democracy that's what counts.

That's what I learnt is not the case in GB. (referenda are advisory - basically a trend indicator/opinion survey.

	Quote:	marton
	Problem is that nobody knew what Brexit was, they were voting for a cat in the sack. Some few examples; Nobody painted on the side of a bus "UK citizens living in the EU will become third-country citizens". Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "the UK's credit rating will fall below third world countries". Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "There will be almost 4 years of chaos" Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "There will be a Customs barrier between N. Ireland and the rest of the UK" Nobody painted on the side of a bus that "Foreign holidays will cost up to 20% more". &&&&&&

After 46 years of membership you know what the EU is about.
So all one has to do is the math to know what will be gone.
(Okay, apart from the 4 years of chaos .... by the way, it's only 3 years so far?)

I'm not sure whether you are mocking or being haughty. Do you really hold the view that more than 50% of the Brits (that is A LOT OF people) voted to leave solely because of the writing on one single bus?
That's not a healthy way to deal with opposite opinions.
And if that were the case, wouldn't ALL of them be backtracking now?

Although it seems just an added afterthought in your list I personally think the 4 (3) years of chaos is the main problem.
If a referendum in a country is only advisory by law, it should have been treated as such. Meaning taking notice that a slight majority of the people want to leave the EU. So the governement should have said, 'okay, let's look at this and the possibilities', studied the reason for the discontent of such a larg part of the population, taken it's time to think it all through before even triggering article 50.
After all, if I get some advice, I don't just jump either, I take it into consideration while checking all the facts and possibilities.

GB has - like the other countries - it's clear rules (although I still didn't figure out even half of them yet, LOL) but they don't seem to apply them.
The way I see it, they asked the population for advice on a subject, then treated it like a decision, then found out (what the governement should have known even before the referendum, that is their job I believe) that this "decision" was not all that simple to go through with yet by triggering article 50 it had already become a realistic decision.

As long as the GBs will not stand together, they can't leave the EU. The EU part seems to be about the only stable thing left there.
If they leave in the state they are in now, they have yet to learn what chaos really is.

That's the 5cents of an outsider.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	marton
	Even if you do not give the Government a large enough majority to force the decision.

Given the number of MPs that quit the tories, it probably wouldn't have been better if they would have had a majority.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	How many times does this have to be repeated before it sinks in? The government which made that promise was dissolved in May 2017. It's passed on! That government is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! IT IS AN EX-GOVERNMENT!!

In the 2017 election, both main parties promised to “respect the result of the referendum”. They ended up winning between them more than 80% of the popular vote.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	In the 2017 election, both main parties promised to “respect the result of the referendum”. They ended up winning between them more than 80% of the popular vote.

So adorable that you believe election promises .