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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #24401  
Old 15.11.2019, 16:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Pretty much that. NATO support is terribly low. You can't just stick dictatorships like Turkey who go on offensive landgrabs
NATO's inability to do anything about Turkey reflects a weakness of leadership within NATO. It shouldn't be necessary to argue that being in NATO comes with certain responsibilities and these include not invading neighbouring countries. NATO countries need to tell Turkey, either you play by the rules that we jointly signed up to, or we sanction you and maybe even expel you from NATO. Their silence on the matter is pretty disqualifying IMHO.

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the Russians nowadays, while having still a reasonable large force, aren't the risk to Europe that some still try to portray them at being. Their success against Ukraine was mostly if not solely working only because a clear majority of local people in those areas didn't feel as Ukrainians, but as Russians (and by extremely alienating Ukrainian politics regarding their Russian minorities in the East & on the Krim)
Such is the nature of Europe, with a long history of land grabs and borders being moved to and fro for questionable reasons that there is hardly a country that doesn't have a minority from neighbouring countries. Of course with people moving around more freely these days, the injustice does not even have to be historical. A cynical exploitation of the injustice does not somehow justify an invasion. Or does the large Irish population of say, Liverpool, justify Irish territorial claims on that city?

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The Russians can't steamroll into Latvia, Estonia, Finland or anything like that - NATO or not.
All of these countries have sizeable Russian minorities, and indeed Russian majorities in certain parts of those countries. What's the difference to the Ukraine?

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In fact, placing NATO troops right at the Russian border probably heated up the conflict, nothing else. Instead of working together to remove the world wide nuclear threat, NATO aggression has "worked" on exactly the opposite.
I agree. NATO has a leadership problem.


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By crazy Trumps' refusal to honour the Iran treaty, Europe got into a position where they can't do anything without either making the annoying toddler in Washington D.C. going all nuts, or supplying the Iranians with massive support from their own people. Because, that time, it's clear the "west" (ie, NATO..) did the treason, while Iran did everything that was in the deal. Break the deal, face the consequences. Can't push Iranians into supporting their own gouvernment more than that.
In my view, this whole epsiode has only underlined how the rest of the West just expects the USA to not only fix problems but to work out how to fix them and assume leadership on all levels. The moment the USA refuses to do that, the others are just a bunch of headless chickens and are unable to even form a coherent strategy.

Merkel, Marcron and co are shouting, "Look, Trump is a toddler. Who is going to change our diapers now?"

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Cancelling NATO (US+UK+Canada+Turkey can found their own best buddy alliance..) and having a strong yet defensive European military force will enable current NON-NATO members to join it, and it being clearly of defensive nature will save tons of money. No need to buy all those offensive weapons the US/Turkey love to use to bomb and invade foreign countries at will.
How can you cancel NATO?
  #24402  
Old 15.11.2019, 16:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In my view, this whole epsiode has only underlined how the rest of the West just expects the USA to not only fix problems but to work out how to fix them and assume leadership on all levels. The moment the USA refuses to do that, the others are just a bunch of headless chickens and are unable to even form a coherent strategy.
Not really in this case. This episode has been created by the US who are using various forms of legal extra-territoriality to push everyone else to follow their dictat.

Europe are doing what they can to keep to the agreement but as the US sanctions companies for trading with Iran even though that trade is wholly outside the US by companies with no US ownership there are limits to how effective they can be.
  #24403  
Old 15.11.2019, 18:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

@amogles
The parties to the Iran nuclear deal framework were the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council - the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France, and China plus Germany and the European Union.

So it was not the US acting alone as a leader. Certainly, the US pulling out unilaterally without the agreement of the other parties and without any evidence that Iran was not doing their part created a huge problem.
It pushed Iran into increasing their nuclear development and left the other parties trying to maintain a fractured agreement.
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  #24404  
Old 15.11.2019, 18:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why would that be any different to NATO?

And why do you think Putin is working so aggressively to undermine the EU? EU military spending is something like 4 times Russia. And as Europe is not seeking world domination we don't need the level of military spending the US has.
But then nobody will keep in check the Germans and you never know with those ones.

On a more serious note, I don't believe it's the time for an European army. Not yet. It wouldn't be quite good or efficient for us - the "decrepit European populations" (especially those from the Eastern part if I may add ) - as somebody here has put it. As our voices will probably not even count in the near future, might be useful to keep the yankees around.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.11.2019 at 18:57.
  #24405  
Old 15.11.2019, 21:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Meanwhile here's the view from north of the border on the forthcoming General Election.

Name:  SNP Braveheart.jpg
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  #24406  
Old 16.11.2019, 09:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Well here's the latest runners & riders of the British General Election - Wacky Races.

As you can see The Gruesome Twosome ( Boris & Rees-Mogg ) are in the lead, proving
that money really does grow on trees, while dogging their every path is Nigel ( Dick Dastardly )
Farage, ably assisted by The Brexit Party's mascot, Muttley.

Trying to overtake them is Corbyn & the Labour party faithful in their run down, open top Soviet
era Zil limousine; while in third place we have the Environmentally friendly tricycle, ridden
by Jo Swinson, for the LibDems as Penelope Pitstop.

Coming in at fourth 'hoots mon' we see Nicola Sturgeon closing in on the PM for the SNP from
Scotland and bringing up the rear, we have none other than The Orange Order automobile,
driven by Will power ( King William's ghost ? ) with Arlene Foster and senior members
of the DUP on board; representing Unionist interests in Northern Ireland.



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  #24407  
Old 16.11.2019, 10:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And with a fast changing world, indeed many jobs in the first world (which HKG is part of) have become redundant, due to automatisation and global trade. However, if you position yourself right, and got the skills, this new world does offer plenty of opportunities. Protesting against a changing world never has worked. It won't for America under Trump, and - to get back to topic - it won't bring back the UK it's "Empire" as the Brexshiters think it will.
"Brexshiters"? I have heard of Brexiters or Brexiteers lol, that's an "upgrade" on the insult scale. Wonder where is K and E to preach you some manners.
Although some of the Brexiteers actually do fit your term/description, but we're usually polite on EF... Farage being one of them, but who listens to that guy anymore? His role is done. What a brave soldier he was, covering himself all in that mud. For a good cause, of course...of course.
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  #24408  
Old 17.11.2019, 12:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Whilst I strongly suspect this will have zero impact upon the general election, it's possibly going to be a very quotable moment. I particularly love the use of 'Gremlin' and the double meaning of it. Does this mean he got her wet and fed her after midnight?

Marton! Start up the popcorn machine please!

'Jennifer Arcuri: Boris cast me aside as if I were a gremlin'

https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1195961819610918913
  #24409  
Old 17.11.2019, 19:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

It's often stated it's the old people who voted for BREXIT & their no's are rapidly decreasing. With that in mind I looked at the 1975 referendum results where 17,378,581 voted to remain, the youngest person able to vote then is 62 now & I suspect 2/3 of those who voted in 1975 have either died or were too ill to manage to vote this time. The Majority of the people who voted again would have been under 40 in 1975.

Have yesterdays youngsters changed their mind over time or is the notion that Old fools who voted for BREXIT is a red herring?
  #24410  
Old 17.11.2019, 19:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's often stated it's the old people who voted for BREXIT & their no's are rapidly decreasing. With that in mind I looked at the 1975 referendum results where 17,378,581 voted to remain, the youngest person able to vote then is 62 now & I suspect 2/3 of those who voted in 1975 have either died or were too ill to manage to vote this time. The Majority of the people who voted again would have been under 40 in 1975.

Have yesterdays youngsters changed their mind over time or is the notion that Old fools who voted for BREXIT is a red herring?
Most studies on the demographics of the 2016 referendum seem to point to the older generation voting to leave and the younger generation to remain.
  #24411  
Old 17.11.2019, 19:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Most studies on the demographics of the 2016 referendum seem to point to the older generation voting to leave and the younger generation to remain.
It's rather like voting for Trump, I have about 500 FB friends in the US & only 2 have ever posted anything positive about him, no's just don't add up.
  #24412  
Old 17.11.2019, 20:32
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It's rather like voting for Trump, I have about 500 FB friends in the US & only 2 have ever posted anything positive about him, no's just don't add up.
Your FB page isn’t really a poll, is it?
  #24413  
Old 17.11.2019, 20:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Your FB page isn’t really a poll, is it?
It's a cross section, then a similar 1% admit to being pro BREXIT, silent majority when it comes to the polling day.
  #24414  
Old 17.11.2019, 20:54
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It's a cross section, then a similar 1% admit to being pro BREXIT, silent majority when it comes to the polling day.
Eh? I think you are confusing the poll data before the referendum with the demographic stats presented afterwards.
  #24415  
Old 17.11.2019, 21:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

That majority, silent or otherwise, was not a majority of the people, or the electorate.
  #24416  
Old 17.11.2019, 21:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That majority, silent or otherwise, was not a majority of the people, or the electorate.
The only majority that counts is the one on polling day.
Why the noisy ones were incapable of answering a simple question beats me
  #24417  
Old 17.11.2019, 22:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only majority that counts is the one on polling day.
Surely that majority is moot for an referendum that was not binding, only advisory.
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  #24418  
Old 17.11.2019, 22:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

So you're thinking of voting Conservative 2019

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  #24419  
Old 17.11.2019, 22:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So you're thinking of voting Conservative 2019

Are they actors in that one too ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eaturing-actor
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  #24420  
Old 17.11.2019, 23:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Are they actors in that one too ?
No. They have each given their name and role.

Current stats that might surprise some people:
There are 650 UK Parliamentary constituencies.
In the current GE, the number of candidates being fielded are:
635 Conservative
611 Liberal Democrat
581 Labour
476 Green
276 Brexit Party
59 SNP
50 Labour Co-op
44 UKIP
36 Plaid

So, Conservatives are standing in 54 more seats than Labour and the LDs are standing in 30 more seats than Labour. I don't know why that is, but I'll be throwing that fact in the face of Owen Jones every time he takes a swipe at the LDs.

https://news.sky.com/story/general-e...-area-11862009
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