The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

Just as a little side note on economic growth - those Brexiteers rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of a technical recession in Germany will be disappointed this morning, after the German economy grew in the last quarter by 0.1%.

[curley]

	Quote:
	I'm not sure Galileo is the best comparison to make with anti-vaxxers and "bugger you, Jack" types. In my humble opinion, obvs.

Yeah well, I did not at all refer to the specific subject of vaxxing but simply to the logic in that podcast of how opinions should be presented..

Oh dear, Mr. Johnson. This is all going to blow up in your face..

Boris the Traitor:

How does this work?

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	John William
	Maybe the pro-democracy protests will spread from Hong Kong to China, somehow it looks like more than a coincidence that the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong started on the 30 anniversary year of the Fall of the Berlin Wall. In fact if the Chinese hadn't suppressed the 1989 protests in Tiananmen Square back in 1989, maybe Chinese communism might have gone the way communism fell, in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.

Sorry to say it so straight, but you've a very.. creative interpretation of history.

During British occupation, British Colonial Police would have hanged any protestant against their rule at the highest tree available and sent the bill for the rope to their relatives. Only when it became clear that Britain can't extend the unfair treaty they enforced on the Chinese in the 19th century it was that they gave their subjects some rights at the last moment. (ie, they happily poisoned their minds, probably in full intention - perfidious Albion and all that)

I just hope that the parents of those pillaging teenagers will come to some sense (probably after them having made redundant due to the local economy tanking massively) and give them some proper lesson on "how to be handle things" - burning down MTR trains in any case isn't.

Those teenagers simply don't understand that the wealth of Hong Kong was mostly coming from trade with China&the world and benefiting from it's unique position. Hong Kong alone wouldn't work - just as Singapore without Malaysia&PR's wouldn't.

And with a fast changing world, indeed many jobs in the first world (which HKG is part of) have become redundant, due to automatisation and global trade. However, if you position yourself right, and got the skills, this new world does offer plenty of opportunities. Protesting against a changing world never has worked. It won't for America under Trump, and - to get back to topic - it won't bring back the UK it's "Empire" as the Brexshiters think it will.

[bowlie]

Hong Kong??? I’m sure that’s got something to do with Brexit but ... ???

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	So you support the idea of a European army to protect the EU from the Visigoths and others?

Absolutely not! My argument was rather to do with managing the external economic pressures, I used the fall of the Roman Empire as an analogy. I’m more concerned with the rest of the world catching up economically and eventually overtaking the EU so that the trade barriers currently in place become an irrelevance. The speed with which China’s economy has grown since she was admitted into the WTO is just an example of what is possible.

I don’t believe a European Army would ever work anyhow. Firstly the spending required is just not palatable to EU nations addicted to welfare spending. Secondly, as a Swiss colleague put it to me once in a wonderfully succinct way, you can’t put together what isn’t meant to be together - 2000 years of warfare, terror and bloodshed cannot be easily erased from memory.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I don’t believe a European Army would ever work anyhow. Firstly the spending required is just not palatable to EU nations addicted to welfare spending. Secondly, as a Swiss colleague put it to me once in a wonderfully succinct way, you can’t put together what isn’t meant to be together - 2000 years of warfare, terror and bloodshed cannot be easily erased from memory.

Doesn't your "firstly" contradict your "secondly"?

Everyone hates each other but we'll make sure nobody's elderly, sick or jobless fall through the cracks due to common policies...

I think your "succinct" colleague needs to have a word with himself...

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Lol at the idea that Brexit, under current conditions, is a good idea. Anyone who still defends the notion, looking at the unprincipled shysters who are responsible for delivering it, and knowing what we know about improperly prepared life outside the bloc, either secretly has something to gain from the fiasco, or is simply stupid. Yes, Mr Clifton, I used the S-word. I don't really care if "conservative" snowflakes take offence, since conservatism is dead anyway. Time to suck it up and move on.

What’s the alternative? Just to cancel the whole thing? Can you imagine the international humiliation this would result in? Also, the damage that would be done to trust in the nation’s democracy?

The reason Brexit hasn’t been delivered properly is because it has been sabotaged at every turn by politicians who can’t accept the referendum result. To turn back now would be allowing them to win.

From Hungary opening the wall to the reunification of Germany took 13 months. Three and a half years we’ve been waiting for Brexit to be delivered. They’ve had long enough to prepare for all eventualities.

	Quote:
	Doesn't your "firstly" contradict your "secondly"? Everyone hates each other but we'll make sure nobody's elderly, sick or jobless fall through the cracks due to common policies... I think your "succinct" colleague needs to have a word with himself...

I think it is amazing what brings people together.

You can guarantee if Aliens attacked, we'd all drop our petty squabbles and there would be a world army within days.

Will there be a European army? Maybe, all depends on the external pressures I guess - I can't see it being an offensive force, just a defensive measure brought about by Russia/China/American advances.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Can you imagine the international humiliation this would result in?

Have you seen who our PM is?

[John William]

	Quote:	bowlie
	Hong Kong??? I’m sure that’s got something to do with Brexit but ... ???

Shush it's TC's great Brexit hope to trade with China !!

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The reason Brexit hasn’t been delivered properly is because it has been sabotaged at every turn by politicians who can’t accept the referendum result. To turn back now would be allowing them to win.

No. The initial reason Brexit hasn't been delivered properly is that no-one knew what it is. In the referendum campaign people were promised customs union / zero tariffs and even continued membership of the single market. As well as unlimited unicorns for the NHS. Thoughts of no deal were perpetually rubbished.

A few quotes...:
From M Gove

	Quote:
	Outside the EU, we would still benefit from the free trade zone which stretches from Iceland to the Russian border

From L Fox

	Quote:
	The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history. We are already beginning with zero tariffs, and we are already beginning at the point of maximal regulatory equivalence, as it is called. In other words, our rules and our laws are exactly the same.

and from a certain B Johnson:

	Quote:
	There is no plan for no deal because we are going to get a great deal.

Finally, also from BJ

	Quote:
	[We] who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming.

To me it is very clear that Parliament has been doing its job properly.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	The reason Brexit hasn’t been delivered properly is because it has been sabotaged at every turn by politicians who can’t accept the referendum result. To turn back now would be allowing them to win.

That list of politicians starts with Farage himself:

	Quote:
	The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot. Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

	Quote:	curley
	Yeah well, I did not at all refer to the specific subject of vaxxing but simply to the logic in that podcast of how opinions should be presented..

I know but they were the first group that came to mind.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	No. The initial reason Brexit hasn't been delivered properly is that no-one knew what it is.

Actually the only reason BREIXT has not been delivered in any shape or form is far simpler - the voters failed to elect an party with a mandate to carry it out. That is what makes this claim that democracy is being denied so funny, the deniers are the voters themselves.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The speed with which China’s economy has grown since she was admitted into the WTO is just an example of what is possible.

China's a member of ASEAN. It doesn't rely upon WTO rules alone.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	What’s the alternative? Just to cancel the whole thing? Can you imagine the international humiliation this would result in? Also, the damage that would be done to trust in the nation’s democracy?

There's no shame in admitting that you made a mistake. The issue arises when you try to cover that mistake up. The first rule when training new staff is CYA. The second is, when you make a mistake, say so straight away and ask for help.

As for your Germany example, they adopted austerity measures for over 20yrs to adjust the economy as a result of reunification.

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	China's a member of ASEAN. It doesn't rely upon WTO rules alone.

China definitely isn't an ASEAN member (neither PRC nor ROC..)

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	A few quotes...: From M Gove From L Fox and from a certain B Johnson: Finally, also from BJ To me it is very clear that Parliament has been doing its job properly.

I don’t see the relevance of your quotes. The quotes from Mr. Gove and Mr. Fox are still 100% relevant. Free trade deal talks have not even begun because the UK government agreed to the EUs sequencing of negotiations (wrongly in my opinion).

The quote from Boris Johnson is also true, he’s gotten a better deal than that negotiated by Theresa May and that also takes into consideration the result of the referendum.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I don’t see the relevance of your quotes. The quotes from Mr. Gove and Mr. Fox are still 100% relevant. Free trade deal talks have not even begun because the UK government agreed to the EUs sequencing of negotiations (wrongly in my opinion). The quote from Boris Johnson is also true, he’s gotten a better deal than that negotiated by Theresa May and that also takes into consideration the result of the referendum.

Free trade dealings have begun despite this agreement so that is not a valid excuse;

So far, the UK has signed 18 "continuity" deals covering 48 countries or territories. Altogether, these deals represent about 8% of total UK trade.

Morocco (signed 26 October)
Georgia (21 October)
Southern African nations (9 October)
Tunisia (4 October)
Lebanon (19 September)
South Korea (22 August)
Central America (18 July)
Andean countries (15 May)
Norway and Iceland (2 April)
Caribbean countries (22 March)
Pacific Islands (14 March)
Liechtenstein (28 February)
Israel (18 February)
Palestinian Authority (18 February)
Switzerland (11 February)
The Faroe Islands (1 February)
Eastern and Southern Africa (31 January)
Chile (30 January)

Clearly there is a long way to go.....

[marton]

I am losing the plot!

	Quote:
	Nigel Farage threatens to report No10 to POLICE for 'phoning his Brexit Party candidates to offer them jobs to stand aside' after two QUIT just minutes after election nominations closed today Mr. Farage tonight furiously claimed his candidates had been offered peerages and government jobs

Source

Can that be true?
Somewhat hypocrical?

	Quote:	marton
	I am losing the plot! Source Can that be true? Somewhat hypocrical?

Poor Nigel is trying, but failing, to hold on to his brexit career, methinks.

He is thrashing about so as not to get caught up in the jaws of death: No. 10.