The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	It's actually 1.7 million. However as a guide to the efficiency of the NHS, the US healthcare industry employs about 18 million people. So 10 times as many in a country with slightly less than 5 times the population. Afraid that question time woman doesn't understand anything. Of course health care is a political issue and rightly so. In every country.

Don't forget that the health care industry also includes things like drug and medical equipment research and manufacturing.
Even though the US healthcare is really expensive, this is a bit a misleading comparison.

[John William]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Don't forget that the health care industry also includes things like drug and medical equipment research and manufacturing. Even though the US healthcare is really expensive, this is a bit a misleading comparison.

Precisely it's the Health Care industry, particularly the US Pharmaceuticals who want the NHS to pay more,
therefore once Trump and the Americans become top dog in the UK; thanks to America comes first trade deals,
and start calling the shots on the NHS - say farewell to the Welfare state.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Don't forget that the health care industry also includes things like drug and medical equipment research and manufacturing. Even though the US healthcare is really expensive, this is a bit a misleading comparison.

A lot (probably too much) medical research in the UK is either wholly or partially funded by charities, not the NHS.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	It's actually 1.7 million. However as a guide to the efficiency of the NHS, the US healthcare industry employs about 18 million people. So 10 times as many in a country with slightly less than 5 times the population. Afraid that question time woman doesn't understand anything. Of course health care is a political issue and rightly so. In every country.

1.7 million?! Even worse! The world's fifth biggest employer!

The lady on Question Time was referring to the frustration at how the NHS has been so politicised and that the main parties are just prepared to pretend that they are able to solve its problems when in its current format this is a near impossible task. The NHS in its current form is simply unsustainable yet no party will dare have that conversation as it'll wreck any chance they have of getting elected.

I always find it revealing how comparisons are made between US healthcare and the UK when there are many other examples of countries which have different models of universal healthcare that could be used.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Don't forget that the health care industry also includes things like drug and medical equipment research and manufacturing. Even though the US healthcare is really expensive, this is a bit a misleading comparison.

No it doesn't. This is people working directly in healthcare therefore comparable.

Edit - even if they were included the US total is 287K people. No material difference.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	1.7 million?! Even worse! The world's fifth biggest employer!

So what? Only sounds that way because the UK is evaluated as a single centralised employer. If you took each NHS region separately it would look quite different.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I always find it revealing how comparisons are made between US healthcare and the UK when there are many other examples of countries which have different models of universal healthcare that could be used.

I used the US because it was the easiest to find. UK healthcare expenditure (public and private) is amongst the lowest in the western world - per capita the UK lies 17th on the global list, well behind the likes of Germany, France or Switzerland (OECD figures)

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	A lot (probably too much) medical research in the UK is either wholly or partially funded by charities, not the NHS.

And those charities get donations that are tax-free to the donor. Tax avoidance & used when people go on TAX strike, donating 100% of income during an HMRC investigation so HMRC gets nothing

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I always find it revealing how comparisons are made between US healthcare and the UK when there are many other examples of countries which have different models of universal healthcare that could be used.

True that.

The German system is pretty neat for example, and people are generally quite satisfied with it.

Now I don't think it would be possible or sensible to seek to transfer that to the Uk on a one to one basis, but there are definitely aspects worth looking into.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	And those charities get donations that are tax-free to the donor. Tax avoidance & used when people go on TAX strike, donating 100% of income during an HMRC investigation so HMRC gets nothing

Yes, I'm sure that's the first motive that goes through the mind of the local scout group when they hold a jumble sale for the ALS association or the local old biddies holding a cake sale for Cancer Research.

[curley]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Are they actors in that one too ? https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eaturing-actor

What's that line about the torries wanting to sell off NHS to Trump about?

What's Trump got to do with this?
And why would Trump - of all people, LOL - want to "buy" a public health system?

I realize I most likely missed something - I'm just asking what it is I missed?

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	curley
	What's that line about the torries wanting to sell off NHS to Trump about? What's Trump got to do with this? And why would Trump - of all people, LOL - want to "buy" a public health system? I realize I most likely missed something - I'm just asking what it is I missed?

That's about Trump buying the UK. He wants to transform it into a resort for old American people with a huge golf course and free health care.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	I used the US because it was the easiest to find. UK healthcare expenditure (public and private) is amongst the lowest in the western world - per capita the UK lies 17th on the global list, well behind the likes of Germany, France or Switzerland (OECD figures)

17th is pretty good considering the UK currently lies 26th on the list of GDP per capita (Germany is 16th, Switzerland is 9th). France is comparable in GDP per capita and has a slightly higher per capita spend on health care yet France sees much more bang for her buck and has a far better universal health system than the NHS.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	curley
	What's that line about the torries wanting to sell off NHS to Trump about? What's Trump got to do with this? And why would Trump - of all people, LOL - want to "buy" a public health system? I realize I most likely missed something - I'm just asking what it is I missed?

Exactly, name a country in the world whose health service is operated by a foreign power. Just one, any one. It's tin foil hat stuff, it really is.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Exactly, name country in the world whose health service is operated by a foreign power. Just one, any one. It's tin foil hat stuff, it really is.

No-one EVER said they want all of it. Just more access to the more lucrative parts plus weakening the UK drug review and procurement process.

	Quote:	curley
	What's that line about the torries wanting to sell off NHS to Trump about? What's Trump got to do with this? And why would Trump - of all people, LOL - want to "buy" a public health system? I realize I most likely missed something - I'm just asking what it is I missed?

This will explain it.

It's nothing to do with "buying a public health system" as you mean and TonyClifton thinks is "tin foil hat" stuff. It's more to do with supplies of medical equipment, pharmaceuticals, etc., and the pricing negotiations which will feature heavily in any trade deal talks.

[John William]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Exactly, name a country in the world whose health service is operated by a foreign power. Just one, any one. It's tin foil hat stuff, it really is.

But there again the country looking to profit from Brexit and have it's own say on the British NHS and stop the NHS
using cheaper ( and just as good ) alternative Pharmaceutical products; is led by none other than Donald
Trump; who's odious reputation needs no introductions here.

The American administration have manipulated successive British governments for decades ( eg persuading Britain
to join them in the Invasion of Iraq ) and far, far longer than the UK's been a member of the Common Market
or member of the EU, in an unequal & one sided relationship called the Special Relationship.

The Special Relationship is a blatant example of one Foreign Power having both covert & non covert, far
reaching power over another country, namely the UK who now have to endure that repulsive Creep in
the White House !!

[marton]

Boris using the NHS to lever voters his way!

	Quote:
	Planned cuts to corporation tax next April are to be put on hold, Boris Johnson has told business leaders, with the money being spent on the NHS.

This is typical Boris double talk.
If extra money is to be spent on the NHS it will come from the Treasury and our taxes.

Not cutting taxes does not save any money. It is similar to people saying how much money they saved by buying stuff "on-sale". That is not saving; when you buy stuff on-sale it is extra spending. Saving means having a pile of dosh under the mattress; it does not mean buying a half-price clock or whatever!

Anyway good to know Boris has changed his mind about turning UK into a tax haven off the coast of Europe
Also good to know if he does make it into a tax haven off the coast of Europe then the NHS will be the first financial victim.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	John William
	But there again the country looking to profit from Brexit and have it's own say on the British NHS and stop the NHS using cheaper ( and just as good ) alternative Pharmaceutical products; is led by none other than Donald Trump; who's odious reputation needs no introductions here. The American administration have manipulated successive British governments for decades ( eg persuading Britain to join them in the Invasion of Iraq ) and far, far longer than the UK's been a member of the Common Market or member of the EU, in an unequal & one sided relationship called the Special Relationship. The Special Relationship is a blatant example of one Foreign Power having both covert & non covert, far reaching power over another country, namely the UK who now have to endure that repulsive Creep in the White House !!

If anyone is to blame for the NHS overspending on drugs it’s the NHS itself! Google the stories and you’ll see the billions that are being overpaid by the NHS trust in even the most basic medicines. The rest of your post is an irrational conspiracy theory that doesn’t warrant a response.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If anyone is to blame for the NHS overspending on drugs it’s the NHS itself! Google the stories and you’ll see the billions that are being overpaid by the NHS trust in even the most basic medicines. The rest of your post is an irrational conspiracy theory that doesn’t warrant a response.

At the same time, UK prescription pharma spending per head isn't even in the top 20 countries. Below most other western countries and way below the "free market" USA.

[marton]

	Quote:	curley
	What's that line about the torries wanting to sell off NHS to Trump about? What's Trump got to do with this? And why would Trump - of all people, LOL - want to "buy" a public health system? I realize I most likely missed something - I'm just asking what it is I missed?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Exactly, name a country in the world whose health service is operated by a foreign power. Just one, any one. It's tin foil hat stuff, it really is.

Since you asked!

	Quote:
	Trump: 'NHS on the table in US-UK trade deal' Speaking at a joint press conference, US President Donald Trump said the National Health Service would form part of negotiations over a possible future trade deal between the UK and US. "When you're dealing in trade, everything is on the table," he said.

Source

BBC so must be true.

If anyone is wearing a tin foil hat it is Spanky.