The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You are continuing to debate with someone that thinks evidence is not based on facts.... the ignore list is a wonderful thing...

What’s “the ignore list”? How does this work?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	What’s “the ignore list”? How does this work?

It's a mechanism whereby members posting from bullshit factories in Omsk can be made invisible to genuine members of the forum.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Yet I haven’t been snarky, and you have not attempted to point out where I am speaking “claptrap”.

The "claptrap" was you trying to pass off your opinion as "evidence". You're right, though, you don't do snarky, you are more into sounding pompous and condescending, which increases the deeper you dig yourself in.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Evidence is not the same as fact, however it can use facts. Facts are demonstrably or observationally true, evidence is information (which can be facts) that points to a conclusion. In this case Boris Johnson has said he will not cut corporation tax in order to fund the NHS (information). Couple this together with other information that we have – the Tories have pledged to take public spending up to the highest levels since the 1970s (a far cry from the party of fiscal responsibility of traditional right-wing Conservatives), they plan to set wages (through the minimum wage) of one in four people. This is a heavy spending, higher regulating Conservative Party which is a far cry from the Thatcherite (Right wing) years of deregulation and small government. EVIDENCE that the Conservative Party is taking up the center ground. Feel free to prove me wrong, only do try a little harder than “he’s lying” or “he’ll go back on his promises”. I will unashamedly be voting for the Tories not because I work for them but because they are the only rational option at this election as they will get Brexit done. I care about democracy, so could never vote for the Lib Dems who are willing to simply ignore the votes of 17.4 million people and unilaterally revoke Article 50. I would never vote for Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party due to Antisemitism, his support for the IRA, his crazy economic plans, his anti-capitalism, his fence sitting on Brexit, his willingness to allow the breakup of the Union and his scrapping of Trident. A vote to the Brexit party may as well be a vote for the Lib Dems or Labour.

You still just wrote two paragraphs of "opinion" . Even the election promises aren't "facts" or "evidence" are they?

It's fine - we all have opinions, none of them are right, none of them are wrong. You are apparently voting for the Tories - congratulations, you still have a vote it seems.

Whether the Tories manage to get a Brexit through that doesn't utterly ruin the country remains to be seen. They seem a bit light on facts and evidence themselves, not to mention reality.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Yet I haven’t been snarky, and you have not attempted to point out where I am speaking “claptrap”. Evidence is not the same as fact, however it can use facts. Facts are demonstrably or observationally true, evidence is information (which can be facts) that points to a conclusion. In this case Boris Johnson has said he will not cut corporation tax in order to fund the NHS (information). Couple this together with other information that we have – the Tories have pledged to take public spending up to the highest levels since the 1970s (a far cry from the party of fiscal responsibility of traditional right-wing Conservatives), they plan to set wages (through the minimum wage) of one in four people. This is a heavy spending, higher regulating Conservative Party which is a far cry from the Thatcherite (Right wing) years of deregulation and small government. EVIDENCE that the Conservative Party is taking up the center ground. Feel free to prove me wrong, only do try a little harder than “he’s lying” or “he’ll go back on his promises”. I will unashamedly be voting for the Tories not because I work for them but because they are the only rational option at this election as they will get Brexit done. I care about democracy, so could never vote for the Lib Dems who are willing to simply ignore the votes of 17.4 million people and unilaterally revoke Article 50. I would never vote for Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party due to Antisemitism, his support for the IRA, his crazy economic plans, his anti-capitalism, his fence sitting on Brexit, his willingness to allow the breakup of the Union and his scrapping of Trident. A vote to the Brexit party may as well be a vote for the Lib Dems or Labour.

Evidence is absolutely the same as facts. Everything else is varying shades of opinion. Just like everything you have written here.

Please supply an example of evidence that is not fact based.

"I care about democracy" implies that unless a person votes Tory, they don't care about democracy. Opinion as fact.

"They are the only rational option " = hyperbole plus opinion as fact.

Rest of paragraph, opinion as fact. No evidence, only opinion.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Crikey! By no longer contributing to the discussion I thought I’d escaped the bullying. Clearly not.

In what way is this bullying you? Is this your forum? Even if it is, do you deny it is essentially made of the right wing lads who got banned here and fled for pastures new? That's the joke, btw.

I'm sure were the boot on the other foot, you lads would be saying "It's banter, lighten up snowflakes".

[Mikers]

	Quote:
	In what way is this bullying you? Is this your forum? Even if it is, do you deny it is essentially made of the right wing lads who got banned here and fled for pastures new? That's the joke, btw. I'm sure were the boot on the other foot, you lads would be saying "It's banter, lighten up snowflakes".

Sorry it was a mistake. I’ve deleted the post. Sorry.

	Quote:	Mikers
	Sorry it was a mistake. I’ve deleted the post. Sorry.

I'm genuinely curious as to what you originally thought had happened to make you react like that?

[bowlie]

I heard on WRS this morning that the European Space Agency will soon be looking for volunteers for their hibernation experiments. You’ll go to sleep today and wake up in a hundred years.

The downside? You will awaken to find that your grandchildren are still debating brexit. Without reaching any conclusions.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	This is just further evidence that Boris Johnson has firmly placed his flag in the center ground of UK politics.

I prefer Michael Heseltine's assessment of Johnson: “A man who waits to see which way the crowd is running and then dashes in front and says ‘follow me’....”

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	It's a mechanism whereby members posting from bullshit factories in Omsk can be made invisible to genuine members of the forum.

But if TC put everyone he disagreed with on the ignore list, he'd have nothing left to read.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	But if TC put everyone he disagreed with on the ignore list, he'd have nothing left to read.

Think positive - he'd have no one to respond to either....

[baboon]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	....Boris Johnson has said he will not cut corporation tax in order to fund the NHS (information). Couple this together with other information that we have – the Tories have pledged to take public spending up to the highest levels since the 1970s (a far cry from the party of fiscal responsibility of traditional right-wing Conservatives), they plan to set wages (through the minimum wage) of one in four people. This is a heavy spending, higher regulating Conservative Party which is a far cry from the Thatcherite (Right wing) years of deregulation and small government. EVIDENCE that the Conservative Party is taking up the center ground. Feel free to prove me wrong, only do try a little harder than “he’s lying” or “he’ll go back on his promises”....

An agenda that is not a million miles away from AfD or National Rally. It's what the far right are doing these days.

[John William]

	Quote:
	It's a mechanism whereby members posting from bullshit factories in Omsk can be made invisible to genuine members of the forum.

Which at this rate will mean that TC will posting his views all on his lonesome ( because he's filtered the
rest of us out ) with only fellow Brexit FMF for company.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Evidence is absolutely the same as facts. Everything else is varying shades of opinion. Just like everything you have written here. Please supply an example of evidence that is not fact based. "I care about democracy" implies that unless a person votes Tory, they don't care about democracy. Opinion as fact. "They are the only rational option " = hyperbole plus opinion as fact. Rest of paragraph, opinion as fact. No evidence, only opinion.

I can go one better. Here is my evidence that evidence is not equivalent to facts.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/evidence
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evidence
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...glish/evidence
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...glish/evidence

Witnesses provide evidence in court. What they say may not be factually true.

It would be much less tedious if you'd just stick to the point of discussion.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	John William
	Which at this rate will mean that TC will posting his views all on his lonesome ( because he's filtered the rest of us out ) with only fellow Brexit FMF for company.

Looks like the Tories will win the election with a landslide victory & BREXIT will occur shortly after. Won't be much to add to the thread

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Looks like the Tories will win the election with a landslide victory & BREXIT will occur shortly after. Won't be much to add to the thread

Lemme guess... You've got a case of champagne ready to go?

That's never ended badly before, has it?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I can go one better. Here is my evidence that evidence is not equivalent to facts. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/evidence https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evidence https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...glish/evidence https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...glish/evidence Witnesses provide evidence in court. What they say may not be factually true. It would be much less tedious if you'd just stick to the point of discussion.

Kind of a neat metaphor for Brexit really, isn't it? "Here's your totally honest non-fact based evidence to help you make your mind up, voters!"

Sorry if you think it's snarky but hey, come on, that IS funny!

[Blueangel]

Looks like the frit, chicken PM won't be standing in the 7 way TV debate, so tonight could be your only chance to see him squirm. Comes to something when the PM is seen as a debate liability unable to be held accountable.

	Quote:
	Scoop: Boris Johnson set to be replaced by Rishi Sunak in seven-way BBC #ge2019 debate next Friday PM very unlikely to attend, sending chief secretary to the Treasury in his place. Sunak, widely seen as a rising star in the Tory party, is the frontrunner to stand in for Mr Johnson on November 29. Conservative campaign insiders describe him as “a very ample TV performer” who is “intellectually dexterous”. The Tory campaign is keen to downplay the importance of the seven-way debate. Insiders describe it as "not a top-tier TV event”, which may explain why more senior cabinet ministers such as Sajid Javid and Priti Patel have not been put forward.

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/...95796659822601

[aSwissInTheUS]

Mr. Bertolt Brecht once said something to the like of: He who says A as in acclamation does not have to say B as in Brexit. He can also realize that A was wrong.

Also, pushing a change through with all means which has no majority support in the population is not "democratic" even if in the past the same society has approved the change by democratic means.

If one wants the Brexit they know what they have to vote for in the next general election, but doing so just in the spirit of a false sense of democratic fulfillment is foolish and cowardice. It is just a cheap excuse to not have a real opinion and to not take responsibility for its own actions by putting the blame on the outcome of a past and no longer relevant referendum.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I can go one better. Here is my evidence that evidence is not equivalent to facts. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/evidence https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evidence https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...glish/evidence https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...glish/evidence Witnesses provide evidence in court. What they say may not be factually true. It would be much less tedious if you'd just stick to the point of discussion.

It would be much less tedious if you actually read stuff properly and understood what was in those links.


Prove. True. Facts.

If witnesses say things that are not true then they are furnishing the court with viewpoints, feelings, opinions.

But sure. You clearly feel a desperate need to be Right in the face of, well, evidence to the contrary.

Question: are you paid by the word or the sentence? If it's by the idea/viewpoint you're not going to make much.