The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	1. Remain isn't "an idea". It's 40yrs of experience. 2. It was Farage et al who repeatedly told Brexiters that Remainers think they're "dumb" in an effort to whip up outrage and consolidate tribalism. 3. If you believe what Farage et al said r.e. "dumb", that makes you gullible. 4. If you're not gullible yet still push that concept, then you're spreading propaganda. Which is it? Never said it was a conspiracy. It's propaganda. Huge difference. Absolutely massive difference!

By the same argument, Leave also isn’t an idea, it’s 300,000 years of experience.

I’ve been called “dumb” on this forum. Perhaps you missed that, or maybe you put it down to propaganda? When one reads that as a Brexiteer that one is “stupid” on a number of occasions, then it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that just maybe that is exactly what people think? I don’t think I need Mr Farage to advise me on that.

I posted a link to some research that has been carried out which supports the argument of bias against Brexiteers. The report was written by two Professors, one from Oxford University, the other from BBK in London with the intention of providing substance to the abundance of anecdotal evidence of restrictions of free speech and ideas on University campuses. You dismissed the report off-hand as “propaganda”, not due to its content, but due to the organisation that paid for the report. This shows a lack of intelligent skepticism, and puts you firmly in the category of conspiracy theorist.

[roegner]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	By the same argument, Leave also isn’t an idea, it’s 300,000 years of experience. I’ve been called “dumb” on this forum. Perhaps you missed that, or maybe you put it down to propaganda? When one reads that as a Brexiteer that one is “stupid” on a number of occasions, then it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that just maybe that is exactly what people think? I don’t think I need Mr Farage to advise me on that. I posted a link to some research that has been carried out which supports the argument of bias against Brexiteers. The report was written by two Professors, one from Oxford University, the other from BBK in London with the intention of providing substance to the abundance of anecdotal evidence of restrictions of free speech and ideas on University campuses. You dismissed the report off-hand as “propaganda”, not due to its content, but due to the organisation that paid for the report. This shows a lack of intelligent skepticism, and puts you firmly in the category of conspiracy theorist.

So, where in the UK do you hail from? Apart from insulting some people, are you from the UK?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I posted a link to some research that has been carried out which supports the argument of bias against Brexiteers. The report was written by two Professors, one from Oxford University, the other from BBK in London with the intention of providing substance to the abundance of anecdotal evidence of restrictions of free speech and ideas on University campuses. You dismissed the report off-hand as “propaganda”, not due to its content, but due to the organisation that paid for the report. This shows a lack of intelligent skepticism, and puts you firmly in the category of conspiracy theorist.

By the same token, your "lack of intelligent skepticism" rats you out as gullible and naive if you wholly base your opinion on a heavily biased report funded by an organisation that is pro-Leave.

	Quote:	roegner
	So, where in the UK do you hail from? Apart from insulting some people, are you from the UK?

Seems unlikely. The opinions are more akin to regurgitated excerpts from pro-Leave literature than man-on-the-street in the UK.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Your question has little relevance to the point I was making and I imagine that after close to 25,000 opinions on the matter that this has been done to death. I could be mistaken and it could just be 25,000 postings of people complaining about a democratic vote. There only appears to be one Brexiteer member so perhaps this isn’t too far from the truth.

It's a fair and honest question which, to date, has rarely been properly answered in real terms, only with notions and concepts. This is the schism...Those of us who strongly support Remain are very clear how our lives will be impacted in real terms. In many cases, those impacts will be immediately felt.

What has consistently been missing from the debate is anyone who can clearly state the same for the Leave option. Which rights and freedoms will you gain? How will you benefit personally or financially?

When millions are losing something tangible and real to them, responding with anything less than the same is folly. You can't answer "We will..." with "But we might..." Doesn't cut it.

As for the limited number of Leave supporters on this forum, unfortunately this comes from the fact that the majority (though not all of them) were unable to make their case without resorting to actions which were in breach of the forum rules.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I think the effect to the UK economy will be negligible; undoubtedly a Jeremy Corbyn led government carries far more risk than Brexit ever could.

Wow!
Much as I despise the man, I totally disagree with that statement.

[Island Monkey]

About to send my postal vote back. On the envelope it says no stamp required, paid by GB etc, yet on the info inside it says if you are posting it from the UK it will be free, and stuff I've seen online says you need to pay postage from abroad.

Thoughts? I'm thinking of putting stamps on it anyway.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	By the same argument, Leave also isn’t an idea, it’s 300,000 years of experience.

Wrong!
The EEC was established on 25 March 1957, therefore the experience of living outside of this neighbouring union was less than 18yrs.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’ve been called “dumb” on this forum. Perhaps you missed that, or maybe you put it down to propaganda?

Where? Links please.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You dismissed the report off-hand as “propaganda”, not due to its content, but due to the organisation that paid for the report. This shows a lack of intelligent skepticism, and puts you firmly in the category of conspiracy theorist.

That's the last thing I'd lay claim to because fact is always stranger than fiction. Don't need to imagine anything when the truth is scary enough. I read the report even though I was aware that the source is a lot less than transparent in it's funding.

The problem with your posts is that they're incredibly light on facts. You just parrot the same old, same old, unbudged by current events. You offer nothing of weight, credence, legitimacy or value.

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	About to send my postal vote back. On the envelope it says no stamp required, paid by GB etc, yet on the info inside it says if you are posting it from the UK it will be free, and stuff I've seen online says you need to pay postage from abroad. Thoughts? I'm thinking of putting stamps on it anyway.

In my office, I often have "paid-for" post from the UK from banks and local authorities but it only covers UK post. Definitely put stamps on to cover it (basically ignore the "no stamp required").

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Island Monkey
	About to send my postal vote back. On the envelope it says no stamp required, paid by GB etc, yet on the info inside it says if you are posting it from the UK it will be free, and stuff I've seen online says you need to pay postage from abroad. Thoughts? I'm thinking of putting stamps on it anyway.

I had this exact same debate with a guy behind the counter as Sihlpost in Zurich before the European Parliament elections.

Apparently, because the prepaid envelope is par avion and marked, they cannot add stamps to it. He also said it would take 6-9 days to be delivered. I made my point that it was Friday and I needed it to be received by Wednesday and was told the only way of ensuring that was to pay CHF 69- for next day delivery. The conversation ended with him saying that either I post it as it is or I pay an additional CHF 69-, but he couldn't spend the next 2hrs arguing about it.

What you could do phone your constituency office or the sender for clarification, or contact your PPC by email or social media. I'll be contacting my PPC regarding this matter. Other than that, you can put the entire completed pack in second envelope and buy the right stamps and delivery service for it. The choice is yours.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I had this exact same debate with a guy behind the counter as Sihlpost in Zurich before the European Parliament elections. Apparently, because the prepaid envelope is par avion and marked, they cannot add stamps to it. He also said it would take 6-9 days to be delivered. I made my point that it was Friday and I needed it to be received by Wednesday and was told the only way of ensuring that was to pay CHF 69- for next day delivery. The conversation ended with him saying that either I post it as it is or I pay an additional CHF 69-, but he couldn't spend the next 2hrs arguing about it. What you could do phone your constituency office or the sender for clarification, or contact your PPC by email or social media. I'll be contacting my PPC regarding this matter. Other than that, you can put the entire completed pack in second envelope and buy the right stamps and delivery service for it. The choice is yours.

Doesn't need to be so complicated, though. The bloke in the little PO near our office just prints out the right stamp (CHF 1.40 for Europe A-Post) and sticks it over that prepaid printed bit in the top right hand corner.

You can do the same with a normal book of stamps - stick them over that pre-printed postmark. Goes to the UK A-Post and arrives max 3 days later.

[Blueangel]

I'll do that, thanks.
Had an email saying the postal ballots were being sent out on Thursday 21 Nov, so currently stalking the postman

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I'll do that, thanks. Had an email saying the postal ballots were being sent out on Thursday 21 Nov, so currently stalking the postman

Is he varying his route and wearing a false 'tache and specs..?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	By the same token, your "lack of intelligent skepticism" rats you out as gullible and naive if you wholly base your opinion on a heavily biased report funded by an organisation that is pro-Leave.

Absolutely not. That I do take things at face value with the awareness that my view may be altered as a result is the entire basis of intelligent skepticism. To be so distrusting and to dismiss information by assuming darker forces are at play from the outset is the purist form of the conspiracy theorist. Backing up ones counter arguments with information and facts doesn't work because you are dealing with people driven by emotion rather than reason.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Wow! Much as I despise the man, I totally disagree with that statement.

Why? Have you read Labour's manifesto? Socialism has been tried a number of times before, and every time without fail it ends in poverty, tyranny and death. Every single time. Leaving the EU cannot possibly come close to this outcome.

[roegner]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Absolutely not. That I do take things at face value with the awareness that my view may be altered as a result is the entire basis of intelligent skepticism. To be so distrusting and to dismiss information by assuming darker forces are at play from the outset is the purist form of the conspiracy theorist. Backing up ones counter arguments with information and facts doesn't work because you are dealing with people driven by emotion rather than reason.

Still, that backing up with facts and information is what seems to be missing in your arguments.

Are you British??

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Absolutely not. That I do take things at face value with the awareness that my view may be altered as a result is the entire basis of intelligent skepticism. To be so distrusting and to dismiss information by assuming darker forces are at play from the outset is the purist form of the conspiracy theorist. Backing up ones counter arguments with information and facts doesn't work because you are dealing with people driven by emotion rather than reason.

So you are saying that people who don't trust what is clearly a heavily biased report, and presenting facts and information as counter arguments is purely an emotional reaction?

And yet the fact you take the report "at face value" until someone presents you with facts and information to the contrary is not?

I think you are overworking the accusations of people disagreeing with you as being conspiracy theorists. People are just skeptical about the sources and funding of the articles you posted. You are probably looking for some kind of echo chamber if you don't want people questioning your links.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Why? Have you read Labour's manifesto? Socialism has been tried a number of times before, and every time without fail it ends in poverty, tyranny and death. Every single time. Leaving the EU cannot possibly come close to this outcome.

You mean like "food banks", "current PM dogged in scandal, cheating and fraud", and "people dying as a result of gutted budgets in the NHS and policing"? That kind of "Poverty", "tyranny" and "death"?

You don't even NEED to be British to see that...

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	You mean like "food banks", "current PM dogged in scandal, cheating and fraud", and "people dying as a result of gutted budgets in the NHS and policing"? That kind of "Poverty", "tyranny" and "death"? You don't even NEED to be British to see that...

You should take a holiday to a country that has tried socialism for a lesson in reality.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	roegner
	Still, that backing up with facts and information is what seems to be missing in your arguments. Are you British??

I have already answered this question, yes I am British. If you missed that then you probably also missed the facts and information I’ve already posted.

[roegner]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I have already answered this question, yes I am British. If you missed that then you probably also missed the facts and information I’ve already posted.

Funny, I did miss that but also cannot find facts you posted.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You should take a holiday to a country that has tried socialism for a lesson in reality.

Do you mean a country which fits with your anti-Corbyn posturing, or a country which is ruled by a socialist party but does not claim to actually be socialist? Like Sweden? Yup, been there. Seemed ok. Everyone happy. Beer was a bit pricey, though.