The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Your question has little relevance to the point I was making and I imagine that after close to 25,000 opinions on the matter that this has been done to death. I could be mistaken and it could just be 25,000 postings of people complaining about a democratic vote. There only appears to be one Brexiteer member so perhaps this isn’t too far from the truth. We’re 18 days away from a likely Conservative majority and 10 weeks away from the UK leaving the EU, so probably too late to be discussing the pros and cons of Brexit. In fact, it doesn’t really make sense to discuss this unless one is still in denial about the outcome of the vote in 2016. For what it’s worth, I’ve already given my reasons for voting for Brexit. I believe the EU is the disease that purports to being the cure. I believe the EU to be fundamentally undemocratic, that it is incapable of reform, and hopelessly unprepared for the challenges it faces in the coming decades. As for the advantages, I don’t think Brexit will be one stop answer that many Brexiteers hope it will be. I think the effect to the UK economy will be negligible; undoubtedly a Jeremy Corbyn led government carries far more risk than Brexit ever could. There are certainly some immediate benefits in that divorce bill aside, the UK will no longer have to contribute to the EU’s slush fund. Furthermore, the UK will avoid the reigns of the hopeless Ursula von der Leyen and the criminal Christine Lagarde. The key advantages of Brexit however are long term which come with the return full sovereignty (and with it accountability) to the UK. No longer will Brussels be blamed for problems of the UK's own making. Looking further Brexit will also allow the UK to find her own place in the World and be better placed to adapt to the coming challenges ahead. The UK will be able to make the adjustments necessary only thinking of her own self interests rather than that of 27 other countries to become more competitive in a changing world. Most importantly the UK will no longer be tied to an expansionist EU intent on federalising.

So you are still unable to list any benefits!
"the return full sovereignty" It is clear from the Brexiteers reaction to the UK Parliament exercising its sovereignty to block Brexit deals that Brexiteers do not want this return.

"The UK will no longer have to contribute to the EU’s slush fund", the UK will in return lose its free membership to the many EU benefits from Euratom to Free Skies &&&; likely for the UK replicating all these services will cost much more than this funding not to mention the billions UK already spent preparing for Brexit.

Everything else you quote like "avoid the reigns of the hopeless Ursula von der Leyen and the criminal Christine Lagarde" is pure jingoism; what is the actual measurable benefit for the UK?

"10 weeks away from the UK leaving the EU" Surely the transition period in the Boris deals runs to the end of next year?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	So you are still unable to list any benefits! "the return full sovereignty" It is clear from the Brexiteers reaction to the UK Parliament exercising its sovereignty to block Brexit deals that Brexiteers do not want this return. "The UK will no longer have to contribute to the EU’s slush fund", the UK will in return lose its free membership to the many EU benefits from Euratom to Free Skies &&&; likely for the UK replicating all these services will cost much more than this funding not to mention the billions UK already spent preparing for Brexit. Everything else you quote like "avoid the reigns of the hopeless Ursula von der Leyen and the criminal Christine Lagarde" is pure jingoism; what is the actual measurable benefit for the UK? "10 weeks away from the UK leaving the EU" Surely the transition period in the Boris deals runs to the end of next year?

I've listed benefits. You've just chosen to ignore them, which is fair enough, but at least be honest.

So apart from fishing rights, supremacy of UK law, the ability to select who goes and lives in the UK, £15 billion annually, the ability to choose how £4.5 of the UK's own money is spent there, the ability to dictate own trade policy, the ability to set tariff rates, etc. I could go on, but you're not interested. Like 99% of all UK voters, you're not going to change your mind, which is the reason the polls have barely shifted in three and half years.

To correct you on a few of your points. The UK will have legally left the EU on January 31st. This is what got everyone in a so much of a panic before the last deadline in October. Nothing is for free as you state (very Corbynesque), however the likes of Hungary, Portugal and Poland get paid as net recipients of EU funds to enjoy access.

As for your return of full sovereignty argument, Brexiteers are rightly annoyed because Brexit has been continually frustrated. You will see true sovereignty on December 13th when many of these charlatans lose their seats. The same can't be said for removing Ms Lagarde and Ms von der Leyen.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Sorry, mate, but I will not be told by some wretched dishonest foreigner that the current shower of shitheads who call themselves "conservatives" are a "center [sic] right moderate" party, after all the lies and shenanigans we have seen over the last month. Why don't you go take a hike in the taiga, Vladimir? We're not buying it.

Do you not think that if I really worked for Vladimir Putin that I would be promoting Corbyn? The Russian's aim is to destabilise, and there would be no better way of achieving this than a Corbyn victory.

Also, if I were a Russian Bot, I think I would be a little more selective than to target an expat forum where the majority of members don't even have a vote.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	He’s your great hope because the alternative is Jeremy Corbyn.

BoJo is "your" great hope? You mean, as in the great hope of "you British people"?

You're lousy at lying and an incompetent troll. You're in the wrong place here.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Do you not think that if I really worked for Vladimir Putin that I would be promoting Corbyn? The Russian's aim is to destabilise, and there would be no better way of achieving this than a Corbyn victory.

A destabilized EU would be a far greater prize for Putin than some mid-sized European country having the dust blown off its superseded, worn-out "traditions".

[Troublawesome]

I filtered that moron after reading 2 of his posts. I never understand why people lose time reading and replying to trolls or fanatics. Right click on profile --> Add to ignore list done.

Having done this for Tom's post as well is the best thing I've done in this forum, every time someone quotes someone I filtered I laugh hard

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I've listed benefits. You've just chosen to ignore them, which is fair enough, but at least be honest.

Did I miss the post where you said about your PPC? Would hate you to think I'm ignoring it.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Did I miss the post where you said about your PPC? Would hate you to think I'm ignoring it.

No, but I am ignoring you. You're just looking for another way to get me to reveal where I'm from in the UK. I've already said I don't see how this is relevant to the debate on here.

	Quote:
	BoJo is "your" great hope? You mean, as in the great hope of "you British people"? You're lousy at lying and an incompetent troll. You're in the wrong place here.

"Your" as in the person I was replying to. I said it very deliberately as people need to understand there is no third option, there is a choice between either Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. People don't seem to grasp what a disaster Jeremy Corbyn would be, and are deluding themselves if they think Boris Johnson is worse. That is why it's "your" great hope, it's either manageably worse (even if you hate Boris Johnson) or total disaster under Corbyn.

	Quote:
	A destabilized EU would be a far greater prize for Putin than some mid-sized European country having the dust blown off its superseded, worn-out "traditions".

OK, I see you have a problem with the UK. At least you're honest.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	No, but I am ignoring you. You're just looking for another way to get me to reveal where I'm from in the UK. I've already said I don't see how this is relevant to the debate on here.

It's relevant because you are lying to us and being slippery. Your language is inconsistent, your "cover story" threads unconvincing.

You won't say where you're from in the UK because you're afraid one of us will know the area and immediately show you up for the foreign fraud you are.

[Sky]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	No, but I am ignoring you. You're just looking for another way to get me to reveal where I'm from in the UK. I've already said I don't see how this is relevant to the debate on here.

You sound as American as I am.
Buckaroo and weasel are American terms (just for starters).
Why are you stirring the pot ?

[bowlie]

In the early ‘70s I worked a 4 day week in the accounting department of a now-defunct airline. We worked from 0730 to 1800 but just for four days. Most people took either Fri or Mon off, but a few chose Wednesday. Although it was difficult to measure many were convinced productivity improved.

As an example every job has a setup and takedown costs coming from arriving, taking off your boots, finding your slippers, tracking down the tea ladies for that first cuppa, turning on your machines (pre desktop) like calculators, photocopy telex machines, fax machines, reading and distributing the telexes and cables etc. etc. Doing these things 4x a week rather than 5 (out of your 40 weekly hours) created time to actually do some of the real work..

I recall one winter the flight schedules worked out where one could get leave for the airport after work Thursday, fly to Hawaii arriving late Thursday - but generally before midnight. Two and a half full days in paradise before catching the plane back. It arrived around 0630 local giving you time for a quick shower and shave before work. Other than the Christmas/New Years weekends we made this trip every weekend from October to March. At the cost of zero vacation days. As I recall my vacation allotment that year was 6d, 6h and 22 1/2 minutes (based on 4 day week). Flight tickets were free ($8), hotels were never full so we could get airline rates, food and booze as cheap as at home. Ah, I’d do it again.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	bowlie
	In the early ‘70s I worked a 4 day week in the accounting department of a now-defunct airline. We worked from 0730 to 1800 but just for four days. Most people took either Fri or Mon off, but a few chose Wednesday. Although it was difficult to measure many were convinced productivity improved. As an example every job has a setup and takedown costs coming from arriving, taking off your boots, finding your slippers, tracking down the tea ladies for that first cuppa, turning on your machines (pre desktop) like calculators, photocopy telex machines, fax machines, reading and distributing the telexes and cables etc. etc. Doing these things 4x a week rather than 5 (out of your 40 weekly hours) created time to actually do some of the real work.. I recall one winter the flight schedules worked out where one could get leave for the airport after work Thursday, fly to Hawaii arriving late Thursday - but generally before midnight. Two and a half full days in paradise before catching the plane back. It arrived around 0630 local giving you time for a quick shower and shave before work. Other than the Christmas/New Years weekends we made this trip every weekend from October to March. At the cost of zero vacation days. As I recall my vacation allotment that year was 6d, 6h and 22 1/2 minutes (based on 4 day week). Flight tickets were free ($8), hotels were never full so we could get airline rates, food and booze as cheap as at home. Ah, I’d do it again.

Great story!

Look I think it’s important to understand the difference. Doing a 4 day week on shifts totalling 40 odd hours is great as effort wise your still putting in the same amount. Labour is talking a ‘real’ 4 day week, ie 32 hours. This is the unworkable bit.

	Quote:	bowlie
	In the early ‘70s I worked a 4 day week in the accounting department of a now-defunct airline.

Any connection?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	OK, I see you have a problem with the UK. At least you're honest.

I'm not sure how you leaped to that conclusion. In any case, I'm entitled to my opinions on the UK—I'm a British citizen.

[bowlie]

	Quote:
	Any connection?

Actually not ... The next airline that bought them did away with it, and the airline that bought them went tits up.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	bowlie
	In the early ‘70s I worked a 4 day week in the accounting department of a now-defunct airline. We worked from 0730 to 1800 but just for four days. Most people took either Fri or Mon off, but a few chose Wednesday. Although it was difficult to measure many were convinced productivity improved.

Well that's blown me away! I had you pegged at 30 something.

	Quote:	bowlie
	I recall one winter the flight schedules worked out where one could get leave for the airport after work Thursday, fly to Hawaii arriving late Thursday - but generally before midnight. Two and a half full days in paradise before catching the plane back. It arrived around 0630 local giving you time for a quick shower and shave before work. Other than the Christmas/New Years weekends we made this trip every weekend from October to March. At the cost of zero vacation days. As I recall my vacation allotment that year was 6d, 6h and 22 1/2 minutes (based on 4 day week). Flight tickets were free ($8), hotels were never full so we could get airline rates, food and booze as cheap as at home. Ah, I’d do it again.

Finally someone who remembers plating tickets and I so miss agent rates. We used to get any Radisson for £40, Accor for £30-35, etc, but free flights dropped off after 9/11 except for fam trips. Only been to Hawaii a couple of times. Used to stay at the Outrigger Hobron, spend all day swimming from Dukes Bar and grab dinner at the Ala Moana mall, but much preferred Haleiwa.

[Island Monkey]

Posted my vote this afternoon, not that I think it'll do any good. Looking like CONS might just get a majority if the polls are right and then hard Brexit here we come ... if that happens I'm not sure how I'll feel about my birth country anymore.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I've listed benefits. You've just chosen to ignore them, which is fair enough, but at least be honest. So apart from fishing rights, supremacy of UK law, the ability to select who goes and lives in the UK, £15 billion annually, the ability to choose how £4.5 of the UK's own money is spent there, the ability to dictate own trade policy, the ability to set tariff rates, etc. I could go on, but you're not interested. Like 99% of all UK voters, you're not going to change your mind, which is the reason the polls have barely shifted in three and half years. To correct you on a few of your points. The UK will have legally left the EU on January 31st. This is what got everyone in a so much of a panic before the last deadline in October. Nothing is for free as you state (very Corbynesque), however the likes of Hungary, Portugal and Poland get paid as net recipients of EU funds to enjoy access. As for your return of full sovereignty argument, Brexiteers are rightly annoyed because Brexit has been continually frustrated. You will see true sovereignty on December 13th when many of these charlatans lose their seats. The same can't be said for removing Ms Lagarde and Ms von der Leyen.

Hmmm!
"Fishing rights"; currently UK boats have fishing rights in EU waters where there is a wide variety of fish. There are no Cod, Haddock, Salmon or Cold water prawns in UK waters in commercial quantities. I am sure the Brits will learn to love the Herring and Mackerel that are in UK waters.

"The supremacy of UK law", it will be many years before the UK can shake off all EU laws which are imbedded in UK law but the Tories are already working on reducing worker rights.

"The ability to select who goes and lives in the UK", every year for many years there were more non-EU immigrants than EU. Anyway, new trade agreements will include immigration rights.

"The ability to dictate own trade policy" depends on negotiating new free trade agreements and so far all major potential partners have stated UK will only get a deal which is not so good as their EU deal.

"£15 billion annually" Nonsense, as I already explained, UK will be lucky if it can replicate all the EU services without an increase in cost, think of economy of scale (economies of scale are the cost advantages that enterprises obtain due to their scale of operation, with cost per unit of output decreasing with increasing scale).

"The ability to set tariff rates", more nonsense, the WTO already rejected the UK proposals.

"Hungary, Portugal and Poland get paid as net recipients of EU funds to enjoy access" and how is this a benefit to the UK?

"many of these charlatans lose their seats" 90% of the people standing for the next Parliament are existing MPs; who do you think will replace them?

[marton]

Tory MP trying to explain away that the 50,000 new NHS nurses includes 19,000 existing nurses
https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMome...0213243054218/

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	marton
	Hmmm! "Fishing rights"; currently UK boats have fishing rights in EU waters where there is a wide variety of fish. There are no Cod, Haddock, Salmon or Cold water prawns in UK waters in commercial quantities. I am sure the Brits will learn to love the Herring and Mackerel that are in UK waters. "The supremacy of UK law", it will be many years before the UK can shake off all EU laws which are imbedded in UK law but the Tories are already working on reducing worker rights. "The ability to select who goes and lives in the UK", every year for many years there were more non-EU immigrants than EU. Anyway, new trade agreements will include immigration rights. "The ability to dictate own trade policy" depends on negotiating new free trade agreements and so far all major potential partners have stated UK will only get a deal which is not so good as their EU deal. "£15 billion annually" Nonsense, as I already explained, UK will be lucky if it can replicate all the EU services without an increase in cost, think of economy of scale (economies of scale are the cost advantages that enterprises obtain due to their scale of operation, with cost per unit of output decreasing with increasing scale). "The ability to set tariff rates", more nonsense, the WTO already rejected the UK proposals. "Hungary, Portugal and Poland get paid as net recipients of EU funds to enjoy access" and how is this a benefit to the UK? "many of these charlatans lose their seats" 90% of the people standing for the next Parliament are existing MPs; who do you think will replace them?

At some point in the next ten to fifteen years there will be a a great shortage of psychologists and counseling services in the UK as people have to deal with reality.

Dictate trade policy and tariffs, only in the BREXITEERS little heads.... junior partners don’t get to dictate any thing, they get to turn up, get told what is on offer, get to decide if the want it and if they are really lucky get a few face saving measures like deciding on if the entire of the UK stays in the customs union or not. There’s the EU trade deal to come, the US, China, India..... eventually reality will start to dawn on the likes of Tony... and heaven help certain politicians when it does.