The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Had you just conceded just one of my arguments to be correct then I may have carried on, however you’re unable to see [I]any[I] benefits of leaving the EU, even when they’re placed before your very eyes. I expect you’re either still in denial about the result or an EU fanatic. It’s no use debating with a fanatic. Good day, sir.

There is also the very remote and unlikely possibility that you were unable to identify any solid benefits?

I note you have been unable to rebut any of my denials of your benefits list.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	baboon
	Yes, you bleated on about this before over net sizes where EU rules forced UK fishermen to use larger net mesh. Perhaps you had better contemplate the reason behind this and the connection to the near collapse of UK stocks of many fish species.

This is slander! I have said no such thing!

	Quote:	bowlie
	Switzerland, what Baboon said. Australia? Their largest trading partner is China. They don’t trade so much with the EU. Canada? Their largest trading partner is the US but they desperately want to change this. Which is why they have signed a very liberal trade agreement with the EU. Quite a bit more liberal than their USCAM agreement with the US and Mexico. They have given up all protections for their dairy and other industries to get closer to the EU

You’ve rather made my point for me. Australia can choose to trade with China. Canada can choose to realign their trading policy to move away from being so reliant on the US.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You have said nothing that hasn't been debunked many times in this thread. You've brought nothing new to that table. If you had raised a benefit that would have a direct impact upon you, then you would have an audience, but as it stands, the majority here can see the detrimental effects that leaving will have on their day to day lives and future. Brexit isn't a concept or a theory to be debated here without evidence because to us, it's been an unwelcome part of our lives for almost 4yrs, with many people having very real and personal reasons for wishing the damned thing had never been raised, let alone voted upon.

How is Brexit going to impact you directly? It won’t have much of an impact on me personally either way as I live between Switzerland and the UK and have Swiss residency. Perhaps I’ll have longer to queue on arrivals at the airport, but likewise perhaps clothing and food will be even cheaper when I’m in the UK.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	This is slander! I have said no such thing

Writing that someone has slandered you is probably libelous.

[Ato]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You’ve rather made my point for me. Australia can choose to trade with China. Canada can choose to realign their trading policy to move away from being so reliant on the US.

I think you've missed the point altogether, Canada is trying to change its trade partners and in doing so had to sign a deal beneficial to the EU, not to itself.

So the UK potentially signing deals that are considered negative for it is good in your opinion?

If you have a pair of nice fluffy handcuffs on and so you cut off one of your hands, is it a net gain that now you can use one hand freely at the loss of doing anything two handed again?

[bowlie]

I’ve decided to ignore a couple of posters involved in the vomit-inducing back and forth. Yes I’m a coward, but I prefer to discuss the issues, not who said what and who didn’t.

Play the ball, not the player.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Ato
	I think you've missed the point altogether, Canada is trying to change its trade partners and in doing so had to sign a deal beneficial to the EU, not to itself. So the UK potentially signing deals that are considered negative for it is good in your opinion? If you have a pair of nice fluffy handcuffs on and so you cut off one of your hands, is it a net gain that now you can use one hand freely at the loss of doing anything two handed again?

I think you need to move away from the EU way of thinking. Of course there is going to be compromises to be made when making a trade agreement, this is why it is called a negotiation. Canada has a deal with the EU which is preferable to not having a deal with the EU. Canada has made compromises, but has Canada "lost"? Of course not, because they're now able to do more trade.

You're either a free marketeer or you're not. Which is why I have no problem with accepting US Beef or Chicken in exchange for example for UK Services gaining access to US markets. In the end, the market will decide the outcome. As I've already said previously, this was one of my reasons for voting to leave the EU. Protectionism isn't going to work long term as the rest of the world catches up and surpasses a stagnating EU.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I think you need to move away from the EU way of thinking. Of course there is going to be compromises to be made when making a trade agreement, this is why it is called a negotiation. Canada has a deal with the EU which is preferable to not having a deal with the EU. Canada has made compromises, but has Canada "lost"? Of course not, because they're now able to do more trade.

I don't have to point out the face-palming irony here, do I?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	I don't have to point out the face-palming irony here, do I?

How so? I want an FTA with the EU after Brexit.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	How so? I want an FTA with the EU after Brexit.

And I want Pep to manage Arsenal with Messi and Ronaldo up front.

[roegner]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	How so? I want an FTA with the EU after Brexit.

You want your cake and eat it......

[TonyClifton]

I read a very long, interesting and sobering article late last night on by Sir Ivan Rogers. It's unequivocal in it's judgement of the government's handling of Brexit. For the large parts he's right. Remainers among you will jump on this as evidence the UK was wrong to leave the EU in the first place. I think the key message to take out however is the naivety which the Brexit negotiations were handled, and the hopeless lack of leadership and statesmen and women that exist at the moment. Not without criticism is the EU, and their dogmatic approach to their values. The great shame being that with all the focus being on the political turmoil in the UK, the EU have not come under the spotlight.

What is clear is there is a very real risk still that the UK will leave without a trade deal. Boris Johnson has promised something that he can't deliver and the EU will not deviate from their holy scriptures. Both sides remain bullish on no trade deal, but the political implications are enormous. What people need to remember is that the UK isn't just going to float off at the end of negotiations and a messy divorce will bad for all.


https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...speech-glasgow

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	How so? I want an FTA with the EU after Brexit.

Not if they are of the same mind as Canada, though...

From July '19

	Quote:
	Canada is refusing to extend its trade deal with the European Union to the UK if there is no Brexit agreement, BuzzFeed News has learned. The decision — in which Canada would not “roll over” the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement if the UK abandons its withdrawal agreement with Brussels — is a huge blow to Britain's hopes of maintaining continuity in a no-deal Brexit, and it could severely impact businesses that sell goods to the Canadian market. It goes against assurances from Conservative ministers who have insisted that replicating the UK's existing trade arrangements would be straightforward. Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, promised in 2017 that up to 40 EU trade deals would be replicated by the time Britain left the union. CETA is one of the biggest it had hoped to have in place.

Getting FTAs in place was described as a "walk in the park", right? Maybe a walk in the park when you've thrown your shoes in the duck pond.

And hacked off your own feet.

[roegner]

Why should the EU budge? The UK wants out..... Simple as that. And it is not new so there were several years to think of the outcome and arrange things.

Or they could opt to stay.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Not if they are of the same mind as Canada, though... From July '19

The UK is currently Canada’s biggest trading partner in the EU. A deal will be struck in spite of what you have read. You can’t buck the market.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	roegner
	Why should the EU budge? The UK wants out..... Simple as that. And it is not new so there were several years to think of the outcome and arrange things. Or they could opt to stay.

Read the piece to the end and you’ll have an answer. It’s very long but stick with it.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The UK is currently Canada’s biggest trading partner in the EU. A deal will be struck in spite of what you have read. You can’t buck the market.

I didn't say they wouldn't get a deal. I'm sure they will. Just not on the same terms as they had when they were part of the EU. Of course you can't "buck the market" but the market suddenly becomes a much tougher place when you're on your own. Even tougher when you've got a bunch of clowns who couldn't negotiate a cappuccino in Starbucks.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	How so? I want an FTA with the EU after Brexit.

How do you personally benefit from the UK leaving the EU?

	Quote:
	And I want Pep to manage Arsenal with Messi and Ronaldo up front.

Getting nervous now that we have Mourinho eh?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Read the piece to the end and you’ll have an answer. It’s very long but stick with it.

OK so I've read-skimmed-read to the end. Where is the paragraph where you think the EU will budge and grant the UK everything it wants in the event of a no-deal Brexit?

There's an awful lot in that article about why leaving is a bad idea and precious little of why it is good.

[Blueangel]

This is why I wouldn't trust a brexiter to hold my pint...

https://twitter.com/aw_bell/status/1199288683632955392

	Quote:	Blueangel
	This is why I wouldn't trust a brexiter to hold my pint... https://twitter.com/aw_bell/status/1199288683632955392

Someone call that guy an ambulance...