Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #24841  
Old 28.11.2019, 08:49
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
It isn't inaccurate - the EU / Canada deal's MFN clause is comprehensive on services and investments.

He didn't say he'd read all 1600 pages of it, he said he read about the MFN in the FTA...
“Any deal with Canada (and the UK) that is as good as the current Canada/EU deal will require EU approval.” Is wrong and misleading.

I accept that he doesn’t have had to have read the entire document to have found the MFN. I am sceptical he has read it though as the point made is not accurate.

The point I wanted to make is that no one asked for proof of this. No one asked, which clause it’s written in. It was accepted at face value when other far more straightforward facts are challenged.
Reply With Quote
  #24842  
Old 28.11.2019, 08:54
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
“Any deal with Canada (and the UK) that is as good as the current Canada/EU deal will require EU approval.” Is wrong and misleading.
So go on. Why is it ‘wrong and misleading’? Yes you can cop out and tell people to google it but they’re not the ones trying to make that fly, are they?
Reply With Quote
  #24843  
Old 28.11.2019, 08:58
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
So go on. Why is it ‘wrong and misleading’? Yes you can cop out and tell people to google it but they’re not the ones trying to make that fly, are they?
I’ve already written why in a previous post. He either misunderstands how MFNs work or he is wilfully misleading. Either way it’s not correct.
Reply With Quote
  #24844  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:01
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I’ve already written why in a previous post. He either misunderstands how MFNs work or he is wilfully misleading. Either way it’s not correct.
No, you didn't.

Please explain why MFN clauses don't work as suggested by Jim.
Reply With Quote
  #24845  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I’ve already written why in a previous post. He either misunderstands how MFNs work or he is wilfully misleading. Either way it’s not correct.
Nope, actually you didn’t explain why it’s wrong and misleading. You just said a member made ‘an inaccurate claim’ which is exactly the same as ‘wrong and misleading’. Basically it amounts to no more than a feeling you have.
Reply With Quote
  #24846  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:07
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
No, you didn't.

Please explain why MFN clauses don't work as suggested by Jim.
Which part of what I wrote isn’t clear for you?
Reply With Quote
This user groans at TonyClifton for this post:
  #24847  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:17
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
Nope, actually you didn’t explain why it’s wrong and misleading. You just said a member made ‘an inaccurate claim’ which is exactly the same as ‘wrong and misleading’. Basically it amounts to no more than a feeling you have.
I think I could take you to the Moon to observe the landing in 1969, and you would still find a way to argue that it didn’t happen.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #24848  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:45
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Which part of what I wrote isn’t clear for you?
Now now Sir Tony, no need for snark when it is so simple for you to prove your case. Presumably.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #24849  
Old 28.11.2019, 09:58
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I think I could take you to the Moon to observe the landing in 1969, and you would still find a way to argue that it didn’t happen.
Well, if you did that, you would have started a new timeline, so there's no way of knowing what happened in the original timeline.

What you would need to is get to a point in space 50 light years from the moon, with an incredibly powerful telescope and watch what unfolded.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #24850  
Old 28.11.2019, 10:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,760
Groaned at 330 Times in 270 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 7,282 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
Well, if you did that, you would have started a new timeline, so there's no way of knowing what happened in the original timeline.
.
See, each to their own.....historical milestones. If I could do that, I'd like to review the Fall of Constantinople.

For Tony, first thing he can think of is the moon landing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #24851  
Old 28.11.2019, 10:15
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I think I could take you to the Moon to observe the landing in 1969, and you would still find a way to argue that it didn’t happen.
No because that would be presenting actual facts, assuming you could construct a time-machine, obvs. So far you have poo-pooed the claim that “Any deal with Canada (and the UK) that is as good as the current Canada/EU deal will require EU approval.” but not managed to actually articulate why.

OK, I get it, you suddenly realised you couldn't back it up and you can't admit you were wrong. Probably best to leave it there, flower.
Reply With Quote
  #24852  
Old 28.11.2019, 11:19
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
No because that would be presenting actual facts, assuming you could construct a time-machine, obvs. So far you have poo-pooed the claim that “Any deal with Canada (and the UK) that is as good as the current Canada/EU deal will require EU approval.” but not managed to actually articulate why.

OK, I get it, you suddenly realised you couldn't back it up and you can't admit you were wrong. Probably best to leave it there, flower.
It is becoming depressingly familiar...any time you press TC for details (where he's from, FTA, MFN clauses) he obfuscates and posts some other pro-Brexit snippet.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #24853  
Old 28.11.2019, 11:29
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,994
Groaned at 283 Times in 224 Posts
Thanked 18,970 Times in 7,511 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
Well, if you did that, you would have started a new timeline, so there's no way of knowing what happened in the original timeline.

What you would need to is get to a point in space 50 light years from the moon, with an incredibly powerful telescope and watch what unfolded.
Could we just go back a couple of years and nip this thread in the bud, thereby avoiding all the snark?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #24854  
Old 28.11.2019, 11:40
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,209
Groaned at 199 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 6,721 Times in 3,027 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
No, you didn't.

Please explain why MFN clauses don't work as suggested by Jim.
Don’t ask a child to explain an adult concept. If he even applied the few brain cells he has he’d realize that NAFTA, EFTA, EU etc could not even exist if his understanding of MFN were true....

He cannot explain something he does not understand.
Reply With Quote
  #24855  
Old 28.11.2019, 11:42
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Don’t ask a child to explain an adult concept. If he even applied the few brain cells he has he’d realize that NAFTA, EFTA, EU etc could not even exist if his understanding of MFN were true....

He cannot explain something he does not understand.
I know, but like the rest of the people on the thread, we'll sure get a kick out of watching him try.

You go grab that oiled hog, TC.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #24856  
Old 28.11.2019, 12:44
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
Now now Sir Tony, no need for snark when it is so simple for you to prove your case. Presumably.
I'll ask again, which part of what I wrote isn't clear for you? I'll quote it below again to make it easier for you. Admittedly the example I gave could have been better, but otherwise everything there is true.

To the point:
"Any deal with Canada that is as good as the current Canada/EU deal will require EU approval."

"as good as" isn't true - MFN only applies if a subsequent agreement is better than the one already struck.
"will require EU approval" - isn't true - A trade-deal struck between two nations will not require third party approval.

If anyone wants to point to the clause in CETA that proves Jim2007 with this statement is correct and that I am wrong then I'm happy to be proven wrong.


Quote:
There is some misleading information here which should be corrected. What he's referring to is Most Favoured Nation clauses in FTAs which are nothing new. They've been around for years and one doesn't need to have read the trade deal agreement between Canada and the EU to be aware of them.

They actually form the basis of the WTO for countries that don't have FTAs. They're certainly not as one sided as is implied here, in the case of Canada/EU it is a reciprocal clause. It doesn't mean that the EU has to "approve" a trade deal between the UK and Canada, it simply means that if the conditions of the deal are better, then Canada is obliged to match these conditions with the EU.

In the context of Brexit, it is actually the likes of Japan and Canada which have these MFN clauses that will problematic, and not the EU. If the UK wants the have access to the EU market for say Services, then the EU is obliged to offer Japan and Canada the same conditions. This is where things could become tricky because the EU may not be willing to open up its markets to Japan and Canada for Services so is unable to do a deal with the UK.

MFN clauses are not beyond the wit of man to solve in striking an FTA, however they maybe beyond the wit of the elected government.
Reply With Quote
  #24857  
Old 28.11.2019, 13:07
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 925
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,155 Times in 1,036 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Don’t ask a child to explain an adult concept. If he even applied the few brain cells he has he’d realize that NAFTA, EFTA, EU etc could not even exist if his understanding of MFN were true....

He cannot explain something he does not understand.
I see Jim2007 has come back and referred to NAFTA, EFTA etc. this is merely a deflection. There are exceptions to MFNs, which is what I was referring to when I said that MFNs are not beyond the wit of man to solve. MFNs don't always apply when a country enters part of a wider trading bloc. For example post-Brexit one way the UK could avoid the issue of MFNs would be to enter into the something like the EEA or maybe even the CPTPP.

However if you really want to play, let's play.

Article 9.5. of CETA relating to cross-border trade in services:

Quote:
1. Each Party shall accord to service suppliers and services of the other Party treatment no less

favourable than that it accords, in like situations, to service suppliers and services of a third country.

2. For greater certainty, the treatment accorded by a Party pursuant to paragraph 1 means, with

respect to a government in Canada other than at the federal level, or, with respect to a government of or in a Member State of the European Union, the treatment accorded, in like situations, by that government in its territory to services or service suppliers of a third country.

3. Paragraph 1 does not apply to treatment accorded by a Party under an existing or future

measure providing for recognition, including through an arrangement or agreement with a third country that recognises the accreditation of testing and analysis services and service suppliers, the accreditation of repair and maintenance services and service suppliers, as well as the certification of the qualifications of, or the results of, or work done by, those accredited services and service suppliers.
Paragraph 1: "no less favourable" not better.
Paragraph 3: This is basically an exclusion clause for the MFN for cross-border trade in services (very important for the UK) if certain conditions are met.

In addition to this there is also Article 8.7 which is worded in a similar fashion.

Then there is also of course Annex II to CETA where on Page 1294 (Jim2007 knows this of course as he's already read it), there another exception to MFNs for Investment and Cross-Border Trade in Services that could work in the UKs favour. Perhaps Jim2007 can point out what this child has failed to understand? Or maybe the detail that this Brexiteer has struggled with?

Never mind an oiled hog, just the treaty documentation will do. Now I’ll await for you to change the subject, twist my point, find an error in my detail, ignore this completely, anything but to admit I may be correct. I think that’s how it works here, right?


https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...er-by-chapter/
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...doc_152806.pdf
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #24858  
Old 28.11.2019, 13:19
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,994
Groaned at 283 Times in 224 Posts
Thanked 18,970 Times in 7,511 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Has anybody else reached the I-don't-give-a-flying-f@#$-about-the-minute-details-any-more stage on this topic, or is it just me?

I vote we give TC his own sandbox to play in, and the rest of us can return to important issues such as the race to become Britain's premier anti-Semitic political party.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #24859  
Old 28.11.2019, 13:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Has anybody else reached the I-don't-give-a-flying-f@#$-about-the-minute-details-any-more stage on this topic, or is it just me?

I vote we give TC his own sandbox to play in, and the rest of us can return to important issues such as the race to become Britain's premier anti-Semitic political party.
The anal details about it count for exactly nothing. Nothing stands up to scrutiny of the claims that the UK will be better off out of the EU in the current climate. Nothing has been negotiated to any meaningful degree and delusion about sovereignty seems to be the overriding battle cry.

The real-time cost to the UK is sky-rocketing and the losses will be heavy and affect the poorest people in the country.

One party is promising a bonanza spending and almost Hollywood scale improvement of infrastructure on zero tax increases.

The other party is promising similar public spending but with commensurate hikes in taxes.

With the body blow of Brexit looming on the horizon, frankly I don't believe the public purse can cover a fraction of it.

Anyone who thinks this is all going to suddenly become a bed of roses post GE and post Brexit is clearly on glue.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #24860  
Old 28.11.2019, 13:36
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,889
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Has anybody else reached the I-don't-give-a-flying-f@#$-about-the-minute-details-any-more stage on this topic, or is it just me?
Might be just you
As my dad used to say... "Stand back and watch the pictures. You might learn something", and this bit is a learning curve for me. I enjoy Jim when he's in full flow. Whilst I fully understand the concept of 'most favoured' in business, client & supplier mode in a specific industry, I've no practical experience of how it pans out on the international stage with trade in general.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
europe




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 14 (1 members and 13 guests)
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Latest Referendum, what will be consequences for EU (C permit and B permit) holders? expat2014 Permits/visas/government 3 11.02.2014 08:59
Importing vehicles and the VAT consequences in Switzerland from France BEFO Finance/banking/taxation 6 07.08.2013 15:11
The (Available in CH) Dog Food Review Thread meloncollie Pet corner 44 08.05.2012 20:15
Common-law marriage and consequences in CH Mishto Family matters/health 9 01.10.2011 22:03
Something for the Brits: M&S in CH mark Daily life 11 15.11.2007 12:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0