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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #24881  
Old 09.12.2019, 10:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It’s basically Brexit I’m a nutshell. Middle class, university educated types can’t understand why working class types voted Brexit in the first place. “Who will pick all the fruit?”, they say. How about “who will pay a decent wage to pick it?!”, we’ve already seen wage inflation as a result of the Brexit vote.

“What about our rights! You’ll end our free movement of people!”, they whine. Completely missing the point that it is almost exclusively well educated, middle class types that benefit from Free Movement of People. All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor where once there were Brits.

Seeing as Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (you can’t just rock up somewhere and expect a welcome, under EU law you need proof of income, savings, rental contract, health insurance), then the loss of rights argument soon falls on deaf ears.
Do you see the contradiction between your two statements?
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All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor
&
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Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (
Or are you claiming Romanians and Polish workers are all fluent English speakers?

According to the UK Govt. National statistics report from 28th November the most workers by Country of birth:
1. India
2. Poland
3. Pakistan
4. Romania
5. Republic of Ireland

You see 1. and 3. on the list are not from EU countries so the working classes are more likely to see Indians and Pakistani workers next to them on the shop floor; Brexit will not change that?

Actually it is the middle class, university-educated types who perpetuate the myth that the Brits will rush to farm work if wages improve.
The factors (range of job opportunities, education, entertainment) that caused Brits to move from rural areas to the cities will not be reversed by wage increases.

Anyway, with a UK unemployment rate of only 3.8% there is not a huge pool of people prepared to exchange London for deepest Somerset!
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  #24882  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.
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  #24883  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.
Try putting an X in both Labour & Lib Dems to be double share the Tories don't get in.

No doubt if the Tories win you will claim people did not know what they were voting for, just like the BREXIT vote & since the referendum the country has changed it's mind
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  #24884  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I'm very working class, didn't go to uni either, have a Greek partner and my cousin's wife is Spanish. My mates and colleagues in the UK include Polish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Greek, French, German and Belgian. My dentist in the UK was from Skiathos and my doctor was Dutch. Two of my bosses had Cypriot husbands and another had a French wife. My Greek partner worked for a Dutch company in the UK.
Not quite.

You've been on the EF long enough to be aware of the constant flow of some entitled middle-class high-income type coming up and starting a thread moaning about something which is 100% down to that person's inability to integrate, primarily because they aren't making an effort to learn the language, but also largely because they are unable to accept that things are different here culturally and they need to adapt their attitude and expectations. In other words, they obviously are intellectually capable seeing they got the education and job that they have, but they are failing to apply that intellectual ability to actually integrating.

Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.

Why is this? I think it has much to do with English supposedly being world language. You get lots of foreign-language movies in Switzerland. In Britain you would have to seek out an arts cinema to find them, and even then they're probably dubbed. Big countries don't understand small countries in the way small countries understand big countries.

So when it comes to FMOP, Britain is culturally disadvantaged, and the education system unfortunately is not really making much of an effort to make up on the lost ground.

I know there are plenty of exceptions. I know an English guy who went to Germany to work as a bricklayer. He arrived without speaking a word of German but picked it up on the job. He worked hard and got promoted and now he is a sort of foreman or manager, watching out over the other guys. People who are smart, bold, or willing to take risks do well in any environment. But you don't here much Lancashire accent on the assembly florr of the Mercedes factory in Sindelfingen, and this despite the guys who do work there having take home salaries that would make many people from disadvantaged pockets of Britain drool with envy.
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  #24885  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Try putting an X in both Labour & Lib Dems to be double share the Tories don't get in.

No doubt if the Tories win you will claim people did not know what they were voting for, just like the BREXIT vote & since the referendum the country has changed it's mind
No, because that would invalidate my vote, you silly boy. Did we roll out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Will I? Oh my. The last part of your sentence is almost right! Well done!
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  #24886  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.
Right now the polls seem to be showing LD support collapsing, with Labour being the main beneficiary.

So it's back to a two horse race.
  #24887  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Right now the polls seem to be showing LD support collapsing, with Labour being the main beneficiary.

So it's back to a two horse race.
Depends on the area.
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  #24888  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Codswallop!

We know exactly why the working classes voted for Brexit. It was because they were repeatedly told that everything that afflicted them was down to EU law rather than UK law, which was total bollocks. If you were British, you'd know that.

Codswallop!

I'm very working class, didn't go to uni either, have a Greek partner and my cousin's wife is Spanish. My mates and colleagues in the UK include Polish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Greek, French, German and Belgian. My dentist in the UK was from Skiathos and my doctor was Dutch. Two of my bosses had Cypriot husbands and another had a French wife. My Greek partner worked for a Dutch company in the UK.

Literally dozens of my friends have worked in various EU countries. Currently, there are still some working and living in Spain, Germany and the Netherlands. The young lad (24) who worked on my gardens in the UK regularly works in Germany in spring and autumn, and has done so for the last 5yrs. The only 'qualifications' he has are a portfolio of his work and being a grafter. It's his reputation and vision get him the repeat work. Also, our Greek nephew's first job in the UK was snow clearing and gritting in Scotland.
You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm. The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common.

Shame that after all this time you still can't move on from the "they were lied to" narrative, and the more subtle, "they weren't capable of knowing better" argument. To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.
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  #24889  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In other words, they obviously are intellectually capable seeing they got the education and job that they have, but they are failing to apply that intellectual ability to actually integrating.
Common sense is not that common though.
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Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.
Greek doctors in Germany is 'a thing'. Met several of them on holiday in Greece, and there are a few in Zurich that I'm aware of.
http://en.protothema.gr/bloomberg-25...ng-in-germany/
British medical staff tend to be sough after in Australia.
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Why is this? I think it has much to do with English supposedly being world language. You get lots of foreign-language movies in Switzerland. In Britain you would have to seek out an arts cinema to find them, and even then they're probably dubbed.
BBC2. Channel 4. Walter Presents for tv series. You've been out of the UK a long time.
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I know there are plenty of exceptions. I know an English guy who went to Germany to work as a bricklayer. He arrived without speaking a word of German but picked it up on the job. He worked hard and got promoted and now he is a sort of foreman or manager, watching out over the other guys. People who are smart, bold, or willing to take risks do well in any environment. But you don't here much Lancashire accent on the assembly florr of the Mercedes factory in Sindelfingen, and this despite the guys who do work there having take home salaries that would make many people from disadvantaged pockets of Britain drool with envy.
There are a lot more exceptions than you realise. I suggest you make yourself familiar with this. It's quite an eye opener.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ship,_2018.png
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  #24890  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Shame that after all this time you still can't move on from the "they were lied to" narrative, and the more subtle, "they weren't capable of knowing better" argument. To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.
For the sake of political balance, Stanley Johnson only last week stated that most of the British electorate is thick.
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  #24891  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Er, we were lied to.

Repeatedly.

Let's not try to rewrite history, eh?
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  #24892  
Old 09.12.2019, 11:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm.
My experience, is that of a native born Brit who spent the first 50yrs of her life living in a medium sized former mining town. Your experience is of a....???
I'm not Londoner where every wave of immigration is immediately felt. In my town, it's usually 2nd or 3rd generation who move out to 'the sticks'.
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The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common.
And I'll refer you to the same chart as Amogles. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ship,_2018.png

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To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.
My home town voted 63.9% Leave. I'm from a Brexiter bubble. I'm up to my neck in them every time I'm there. You should try writing like a native Brit sometime.
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  #24893  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.
.
There are though... Maybe there aren't that many doctors* because being a doctor in UK is still better than in many other places, but plenty of British in finance, IT, education and other fields of course.

*Btw, it's a positive thing I would say. You wouldn't like your native UK to pay for these people's education and then see them going to work abroad by the thousands..

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You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm. .
Definitely not the only one here, if you want to be fair you wouldn't pick on Blueangel...
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The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common.
.
British companies took advantages of freedom of goods and free movement of capital too, and that wasn't their god given right before EU.

If you want to have one you can't have it without the other, they're meant to compensate.

Last edited by greenmount; 09.12.2019 at 12:24.
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  #24894  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.
You'd be wrong. The UK is one of the highest paying countries for doctors (particularly GPs), earnings are roughly on a par with Switzerland and there is a significant domestic undersupply. Given that Switzerland is rather more expensive than the UK there is little incentive for UK doctors to come here.
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  #24895  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You'd be wrong. The UK is one of the highest paying countries for doctors (particularly GPs), earnings are roughly on a par with Switzerland and there is a significant domestic undersupply. Given that Switzerland is rather more expensive than the UK there is little incentive for UK doctors to come here.
Seeing the NHS has a serious recruitment problem despite paying good wages would suggest that it's still not an enviable place to work.
  #24896  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Seeing the NHS has a serious recruitment problem despite paying good wages would suggest that it's still not an enviable place to work.
Doctors are well paid but too few trained. Everyone else gets bargain basement wages.
  #24897  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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British companies took advantages of freedom of goods and free movement of capital too, and that wasn't their god given right before EU.

If you want to have one you can't have it without the other, they're meant to compensate.
Maybe the people benefitting from the free movement of goods and capital are not the same people who could be benefitting from FMOP. And mostly not in the same part of the country either. In other words, one bunch get all the advantages and the other bunch get all the disadvantages.
  #24898  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Doctors are well paid but too few trained. Everyone else gets bargain basement wages.
I don't think I've ever met a British nurse in Switzerland either.
  #24899  
Old 09.12.2019, 12:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't think I've ever met a British nurse in Switzerland either.
I have.
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Old 09.12.2019, 12:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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*Btw, it's a positive thing I would say. You wouldn't like your native UK to pay for these people's education and then see them going to work abroad by the thousands...
True, and we've been down this road many times before when discussing the young eastern Europeans leaving to find work, thereby causing a skills shortage in their home country. Unfortunately...

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The United Kingdom provides the largest source of overseas doctors or International Medical Graduates (IMGs) working in Australia.
https://advancemed.com.au/blog/uk-doctors-australia/
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