The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	The article you mentioned proves exactly...what???? ... Oh, I got it, you wouldn't miss a chance on this forum to mention Labour Party, it doesn't matter how, when and why.

The article reported that the documents Labour presented as a great scandal last week were likely done so from Russia. Nothing more.

At least mentioning the Labour Party on a discussion about Brexit is more relevant than Russia.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	At least mentioning the Labour Party on a discussion about Brexit is more relevant than Russia.

You'd be surprised...

[baboon]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The article reported that the documents Labour presented as a great scandal last week were likely done so from Russia. Nothing more. At least mentioning the Labour Party on a discussion about Brexit is more relevant than Russia.

Just to be clear, in fact the leak was on the interwebs and Labour simply used it. So absolutely nothing to remotely link Russia to Labour. Despite your clumsy effort to make it appear so.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	At least mentioning the Labour Party on a discussion about Brexit is more relevant than Russia.

Oh, that hit a nerve, uh?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	baboon
	Just to be clear, in fact the leak was on the interwebs and Labour simply used it. So absolutely nothing to remotely link Russia to Labour. Despite your clumsy effort to make it appear so.

Leaked to the web for what purpose? I am not suggesting any conspiracy (I don't think Corbyn and his team are smart enough to pull something like that off), I merely inferred that Labour could have been fans of Putin had they benefited from Russian orchestrated leaks. Unfortunately for them, their bold claims fell apart as soon as anyone bothered to scrutinise the leaked documents, but that's another story.

[marton]

In our Post-truth world!

From the Guardian;
"Johnson denies laughing at Trump and not taking him seriously.

This is what Boris Johnson said when he was asked about the footage apparently showing him laughing at Donald Trump at a reception last night. “Do you not take President Trump seriously,” he was asked. He replied:

No. That’s complete nonsense. I don’t know where that’s come from.

My colleague Owen Gibson has the answer."

	Quote:
	Owen Gibson@owen_g Johnson on the video of Trudeau and the gang laughing at Trump: "That's complete nonsense, I don't know where that's come from." Er, from the video. 3:14 PM - Dec 4, 2019

LOL!

Boris should have taken the opportunity to distance himself from Trump; worth a few votes

[Mikers]

For the upcoming elections you have to make a choice.

You have a convincing liar - Boris Johnson.
An unconvincing liar - Jeremy Corbyn
A leader who the more people see of the less they like her - Jo Swinson
Yesterdays half popular party now in death throws lead by -Nigel Farage
Or the greens.
and in scotland the SNP. Whoop de do.

From these leaders you will get a number different outcomes:

Johnson - Brexit and becoming an insignificant dot on the international landscape combined with a recession.
Corbyn - Economic ruin.
SNP - breakup of the UK.
Greens - Economic ruin in an environmentally friendly way.
Brexit Party - economic ruin due to skills shortages
and the LibDems. Last behind the greens because apart from their fixation with ending brexit, they dont have any policies.

It is the worst set of parties and candidates I can remember in all my years.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	For the upcoming elections you have to make a choice. You have a convincing liar - Boris Johnson. An unconvincing liar - Jeremy Corbyn A leader who the more people see of the less they like her - Jo Swinson Yesterdays half popular party now in death throws lead by -Nigel Farage Or the greens. and in scotland the SNP. Whoop de do. From these leaders you will get a number different outcomes: Johnson - Brexit and becoming an insignificant dot on the international landscape combined with a recession. Corbyn - Economic ruin. SNP - breakup of the UK. Greens - Economic ruin in an environmentally friendly way. Brexit Party - economic ruin due to skills shortages and the LibDems. Last behind the greens because apart from their fixation with ending brexit, they dont have any policies. It is the worst set of parties and candidates I can remember in all my years.

The choice is far simpler than that, you either have Boris Johnson leading a majority government or Jeremy Corbyn leading a minority government propped up by the SNP.

If leaders were getting chosen based on leadership qualities then Nicola Sturgeon or Nigel Farage would be in with a good shout. In the UK though the Prime Minister doesn’t have the same executive powers as say in the US or France so it makes more sense to choose your vote based on the party’s policies. In this election I think there is a really wide choice where this is concerned.

It’s easy to complain about the choice on offer, but what would you like to see instead? A return to the Blair years? Cameron? Thatcher? Or do you have some other political ground yet to be broken you would like a party to take up? For myself I think the choice on offer caters for most. We should be thankful that populism hasn’t taken route in the same way it has across continental Europe. Well apart from in the Labour Party.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The choice is far simpler than that, you either have Boris Johnson leading a majority government or Jeremy Corbyn leading a minority government propped up by the SNP. If leaders were getting chosen based on leadership qualities then Nicola Sturgeon or Nigel Farage would be in with a good shout. In the UK though the Prime Minister doesn’t have the same executive powers as say in the US or France so it makes more sense to choose your vote based on the party’s policies. In this election I think there is a really wide choice where this is concerned. It’s easy to complain about the choice on offer, but what would you like to see instead? A return to the Blair years? Cameron? Thatcher? Or do you have some other political ground yet to be broken you would like a party to take up? For myself I think the choice on offer caters for most. We should be thankful that populism hasn’t taken route in the same way it has across continental Europe. Well apart from in the Labour Party.

I would like to see David milliband leading a center left labour government. I would vote for that.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I would like to see David milliband leading a center left labour government. I would vote for that.

Couldn’t you just vote for the Lib Dem’s then? Their policies have moved over to cover the center left ground, certainly economically they have. Perhaps in some parallel universe David Miliband didn’t get stabbed in the back by his brother and has just started campaigning for a second election as PM.

I doubt it though, Ed, David, neither of them would have beaten David Cameron in 2015. It was about this time that the developed world started to turn their back on center left politics and this is a trend that’s continued through to today.

Now Brexit has clouded politics further and I expect to see some surprising results in the election in a weeks time. In addition to left-right, we now have leave-remain. The independence referendum transformed the political landscape in Scotland and the effects are still seen to this day. I expect a similar story to take place in the rest of the UK in the coming years.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	...and the LibDems. Last behind the greens because apart from their fixation with ending brexit, they dont have any policies.

They do. It's largely a traditional LD manifesto, with the usual appearances of ring fencing tax or NI for the NHS, and PR. They've been LD policies since 1988.

	Quote:	Mikers
	I would like to see David milliband leading a center left labour government. I would vote for that.

You're not alone there. I've always believed that the UK, as a country, is instinctively centre left by the European standard of the term, as opposed to US standard.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Couldn’t you just vote for the Lib Dem’s then? Their policies have moved over to cover the center left ground, certainly economically they have.

Moved over from where exactly?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	You're not alone there. I've always believed that the UK, as a country, is instinctively centre left by the European standard of the term, as opposed to US standard.

What on earth gives you that idea? Since the Second World War there has only been 13 years of what could be argued as a center left government. I would say the Third Way politics of New Labour was far more center than it was center-left.

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Moved over from where exactly?

The center.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	What on earth gives you that idea? Since the Second World War there has only been 13 years of what could be argued as a center left government. I would say the Third Way politics of New Labour was far more center than it was center-left. The center.

But are you talking about the UK "centre" politics or the US "center" politics, which is a different kettle of fish altogether?

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	They do. It's largely a traditional LD manifesto, with the usual appearances of ring fencing tax or NI for the NHS, and PR. They've been LD policies since 1988.

And this sums it up really. They've had policies since 1988 ? I cant pick out any of them except lying about cancelling university fees. Who is their chancellor ? dunno. Foreign Secretary ? Not a clue.

The only one you know about is Swinson, whom survey's have actually reported the more people see of her the less they like her. No Charisma at all, which is essential for job.

The only other one people can name is Chukka Ummuna, who also (along with D Milliband) would have made a great leader of Labour. If Swinson would just bugger off and put Chukka in charge, then they might get some traction. But honestly right now libdem tax policy ? not a clue. Education ? no idea. And thats not down to me. its down to ineffective message delivery by the political party. I actually know what the Brexit party want, I can even tell you the Green's economic "policy" because its economic suicide. But no idea on libdem.

(whats interesting about greens though, is who leads them. Its caroline lucas right ? wrong. its not, its Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. Did I know that ? no, i thought Lucas was leader. Going to show: leading is about leadership, not about being particularly brainy. Hence Johnson.)

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	What on earth gives you that idea? Since the Second World War there has only been 13 years of what could be argued as a center left government. I would say the Third Way politics of New Labour was far more center than it was center-left.

I believe that UK society is majority conservative (with a small c) in that they prefer keeping things largely as they are, and that if change is necessary, that it should be done in small steps.

Labour governments who have been succesful at being re-elected multiple times have typically taken such a conservative approach. The Torys are of course conservative by definition even if sometimes they have forgotten it.

Right now Britain is being torn between fundamentally unconservative forces. A hard Brexit is very unconservative, a soft Brexit is moderately unconservatiove, Corbyn's socialist Utopia is totally unconservative. The SNP and the Greens also pursue unconservative goals and so by matter of elimination, the LDs are the only conservative force left standing but somehow they are too progressive to realize that or cash in on it.

[eng_ch]

	Quote:	Mikers
	And this sums it up really. They've had policies since 1988 ? I cant pick out any of them except lying about cancelling university fees.

Proportional representation. Scrap the 15 year rule & create dedicated constituencies/MPs to represent British citizens overseas. Revoke Article 50. To name but 3.

	Quote:
	Who is their chancellor ? dunno.

Ed Davey, I expect.

	Quote:
	Foreign Secretary ? Not a clue.

Chuka Umuna at a guess


But I agree, not the best campaign and a tactical howler by putting candidates up against e.g. Rosie Duffield and David Gauke

[Mikers]

	Quote:	eng_ch
	Proportional representation. Scrap the 15 year rule & create dedicated constituencies/MPs to represent British citizens overseas. Revoke Article 50. To name but 3. Ed Davey, I expect. Chuka Umuna at a guess But I agree, not the best campaign and a tactical howler by putting candidates up against e.g. Rosie Duffield and David Gauke

Hi yes, I think we are at the same point. its not that you can't look them up, and of course they have had a full set of policies for years, its that I, as a standard member of the public, can't reel off any of them without looking it up. That's a communications failure by any stroke of the chalk.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	amogles
	I believe that UK society is majority conservative (with a small c) in that they prefer keeping things largely as they are, and that if change is necessary, that it should be done in small steps. Labour governments who have been succesful at being re-elected multiple times have typically taken such a conservative approach. The Torys are of course conservative by definition even if sometimes they have forgotten it. Right now Britain is being torn between fundamentally unconservative forces. A hard Brexit is very unconservative, a soft Brexit is moderately unconservatiove, Corbyn's socialist Utopia is totally unconservative. The SNP and the Greens also pursue unconservative goals and so by matter of elimination, the LDs are the only conservative force left standing but somehow they are too progressive to realize that or cash in on it.

I agree for the most part that the UK has traditionally been a conservative country, the only thing has muddied the waters is Brexit. Can you classify Brexit as conservative or not? I'm not so sure you can, if so, why would 52% of voters have voted for it in 2016?

I think what we're witnessing is people moving away from voting along traditional left-right party lines and pivoting towards leave-remain. Yet left-right still remains a significant factor. Perhaps the political compass needs to be reset with leave-remain on it. I certainly don't think this is going to go away after this election, or indeed after any Brexit agreement has been agreed.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I agree for the most part that the UK has traditionally been a conservative country, the only thing has muddied the waters is Brexit. Can you classify Brexit as conservative or not? I'm not so sure you can, if so, why would 52% of voters have voted for it in 2016? I think what we're witnessing is people moving away from voting along traditional left-right party lines and pivoting towards leave-remain. Yet left-right still remains a significant factor. Perhaps the political compass needs to be reset with leave-remain on it. I certainly don't think this is going to go away after this election, or indeed after any Brexit agreement has been agreed.

In my view, Brexit is a radical concept, and thus not conservative. Brexit might be favourable to conservative policies once it is acheived, but the actual step itself is not conservative, no matter how I look at it.

Will Brexit replace the left-right divide? I think that people realize that the Brexit discussion is enormously divisive and is blocking other projects and objectives by consuming so much time and energy while achieving so little. Basically we have had three years of stalemate during which so many other important topics have been starved of oxygen and not been pursued. So whichever way Brexit is finally settled, people will be keen to leave it in the past and get other stuff done. Whoever brings up the same old cracked-record arguments again after that does so at their own peril.