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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #24921  
Old 05.12.2019, 15:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I agree for the most part that the UK has traditionally been a conservative country, the only thing has muddied the waters is Brexit. Can you classify Brexit as conservative or not? I'm not so sure you can, if so, why would 52% of voters have voted for it in 2016?

I think what we're witnessing is people moving away from voting along traditional left-right party lines and pivoting towards leave-remain. Yet left-right still remains a significant factor. Perhaps the political compass needs to be reset with leave-remain on it. I certainly don't think this is going to go away after this election, or indeed after any Brexit agreement has been agreed.
Actually, in reality, there is little interest today in leave-remain, just look at the latest polls for the Brexit party down to 3% from 26% at their best.
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  #24922  
Old 06.12.2019, 09:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In my view, Brexit is a radical concept, and thus not conservative. Brexit might be favourable to conservative policies once it is acheived, but the actual step itself is not conservative, no matter how I look at it.
Very much no. One of the overriding conservative (big and small "c") concerns in the UK in particular is the avoidance of anything foreign. The EU is very much foreign to them, hence their dislike of it. The US at least speaks (more-or-less) the same language hence is less foreign and we can cosy up to them a bit more easily than the EU.

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Actually, in reality, there is little interest today in leave-remain, just look at the latest polls for the Brexit party down to 3% from 26% at their best.
No proof one way or the other - the Tories have simply absorbed the Brexit party.
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  #24923  
Old 06.12.2019, 10:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Jacob Rees-Mogg feels the Earth move in Somerset

Yes Jacob Rees-Mogg is shaken but not disturbed as a 3.2 magnitude earthquake hits
his home constituency of North East Somerset in England, after returning to
canvas for next weeks General Election.

Initial reports say there's no damage to his stately home before Rees-Mogg sallies
forth to deliver tea, sandwiches & crumpets on his tea trolley, to affected constituents
who were rudely awoken by last nights quake.

As you can see there's always a Welcome in the Hillside for Rees-Mogg whenever he
blesses his long suffering constituents with his presence; as can be seen from
this photo from a Somerset slag heap near JRM's home.




BBC News - Somerset homes shaken as 3.2 magnitude earthquake strikes

The Independent - Get Mogg Out message appears on hill near Tory MP's home
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  #24924  
Old 06.12.2019, 10:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In my view, Brexit is a radical concept, and thus not conservative. Brexit might be favourable to conservative policies once it is acheived, but the actual step itself is not conservative, no matter how I look at it.

Will Brexit replace the left-right divide? I think that people realize that the Brexit discussion is enormously divisive and is blocking other projects and objectives by consuming so much time and energy while achieving so little. Basically we have had three years of stalemate during which so many other important topics have been starved of oxygen and not been pursued. So whichever way Brexit is finally settled, people will be keen to leave it in the past and get other stuff done. Whoever brings up the same old cracked-record arguments again after that does so at their own peril.
I very much hope that you’re right, however I can’t see it happening myself. I expect Brexit to dominate UK politics for a generation.
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  #24925  
Old 06.12.2019, 18:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A senior British diplomat in the US has quit with a blast at the UK government over Brexit, saying she could no longer "peddle half-truths" on behalf of political leaders she did not "trust."

In a searing resignation letter delivered just over a week before the UK general election, Alexandra Hall Hall, the lead envoy for Brexit in the British Embassy in Washington, said that she had become increasingly dismayed by the demands placed on the British civil service to deliver messages on Brexit which were not "fully honest."

The reluctance of Britain's leaders to play straight with the public on Brexit, Hall Hall said, had undermined the credibility of UK diplomats abroad.
Source

Both major English speaking countries promoting official policies of lies, half-truths and absurd conspiracy theories.
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  #24926  
Old 06.12.2019, 18:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Both major English speaking countries promoting official policies of lies, half-truths and absurd conspiracy theories.
To be fair, I think at this point in time, it's only the government which actually believes it all.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge on how to fact-check can pick a million holes in any of a number of Brexit policies.
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  #24927  
Old 07.12.2019, 00:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This game could be just the ticket for a Brexit Christmas.

Name:  Brexitopoly.jpg
Views: 219
Size:  130.6 KB
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  #24928  
Old 07.12.2019, 10:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You have to admit that Russia's techniques are quite atypical. Asymmetric war or how do they call it?
It's ironic that exactly that internet that Putin hates so much is also helping him achieve their goals little by little. If only this internet was just one way....oh wait, it will be. (Meantime I heard Putin is getting more and more fans...)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50259597
FYI, Reddit have now made a link between the leaked documents and Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50695558
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  #24929  
Old 07.12.2019, 11:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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FYI, Reddit have now made a link between the leaked documents and Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50695558
The Tories should have long ago released their report on Russian interference in the UK political process.
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  #24930  
Old 07.12.2019, 13:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Doublethink:

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Culture secretary Nicky Morgan said it was "extremely serious" that the leaked documents could be linked to a Russian disinformation campaign.
Leaked documents, surely, are information rather than disinformation.
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  #24931  
Old 08.12.2019, 01:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Low-skilled migrants will face sweeping new restrictions on moving to Britain, under a radical post-Brexit immigration shake-up planned by Boris Johnson.
Does leave the question open of who will pick the fruit, serve the burgers or clean the toilets.

Article on this topic here "The U.K. Needs Low-Skilled Migrants"
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  #24932  
Old 08.12.2019, 12:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Very much no. One of the overriding conservative (big and small "c") concerns in the UK in particular is the avoidance of anything foreign. The EU is very much foreign to them, hence their dislike of it. The US at least speaks (more-or-less) the same language hence is less foreign and we can cosy up to them a bit more easily than the EU.
Which is what I said. Brexit is a very non-conservative action that is supported by many conservatives because they think it will enable them to pursue more conservative goals after.
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  #24933  
Old 08.12.2019, 12:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Does leave the question open of who will pick the fruit,
I thought not long ago you were telling us that under Brexit, British agriculture is basically fooked anyway. You know, because of lorries in Dover and all that. So in other words, that Dover thing isn't that bad after all? Why otherwise would a farmer want to employ people to pick fruit that he can't sell anyway?
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  #24934  
Old 08.12.2019, 12:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I thought not long ago you were telling us that under Brexit, British agriculture is basically fooked anyway. You know, because of lorries in Dover and all that. So in other words, that Dover thing isn't that bad after all? Why otherwise would a farmer want to employ people to pick fruit that he can't sell anyway?
I think the point is nothing to do with exporting foodstuffs. It’s just asking the question, who will do all the jobs currently done by immigrants that currently British people don’t seem to want to do?
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Old 08.12.2019, 12:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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[jobs]...British people don’t seem to want to do?
Not picking on you in particular, but it's interesting how this notion has migrated from right to left in recent years.

It shouldn't really be a surprise that British workers are unwilling to sleep 20 to a caravan and work for appalling wages after all the gains made in workers' rights over the last century. A properly-planned Brexit might have addressed that. Instead it looks like the Neo-Tories want to drag us all back to the 19th century instead.
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  #24936  
Old 08.12.2019, 13:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not picking on you in particular, but it's interesting how this notion has migrated from right to left in recent years.

It shouldn't really be a surprise that British workers are unwilling to sleep 20 to a caravan and work for appalling wages after all the gains made in workers' rights over the last century. A properly-planned Brexit might have addressed that. Instead it looks like the Neo-Tories want to drag us all back to the 19th century instead.
I don't feel much sympathy for an industry that claims it can only survive if it exploits people under such conditions. Seeing there are labels such as Fair Trade that assure farmers are nice to people in far away countries, why can we not have a similar label for domestic produce? I for one wouldn't mind forking out a bit more for it.
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  #24937  
Old 08.12.2019, 13:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think the point is nothing to do with exporting foodstuffs. It’s just asking the question, who will do all the jobs currently done by immigrants that currently British people don’t seem to want to do?
Nevertheless, Marton has claimed that these products will become un-sellable post Brexit, so if he is right, why worry about who is going to pick them?
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  #24938  
Old 08.12.2019, 13:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nevertheless, Marton has claimed that these products will become un-sellable post Brexit, so if he is right, why worry about who is going to pick them?
Well I guess that’s relevant for the export of perishables but what about the homegrown stuff for sale in the UK?

Also you seem to be desperately clinging onto the food angle whilst completely ignoring the rest of the jobs being done by foreigners. It’s not all about picking cabbages for export, is it?
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  #24939  
Old 08.12.2019, 13:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't feel much sympathy for an industry that claims it can only survive if it exploits people under such conditions. Seeing there are labels such as Fair Trade that assure farmers are nice to people in far away countries, why can we not have a similar label for domestic produce? I for one wouldn't mind forking out a bit more for it.
Well it is not exactly as you described it. It is a European market, regulated by EU law and the workers are free to move where ever they want to seek work. In the past the UK was an attractive market for such workers, but with the weak pound etc workers have gone else where this year, which is also why farmers have experienced difficulties this year. On top of this the richer countries in the market are contributing to the structural fund which is helping the countries where these workers come from.

So it is not really a great comparison.
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  #24940  
Old 08.12.2019, 13:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Also you seem to be desperately clinging onto the food angle whilst completely ignoring the rest of the jobs being done by foreigners. It’s not all about picking cabbages for export, is it?
Every Roman emperor knew or learned very quickly that to rule Rome, the key was food and entertainment and it is still the same today. An inability to provide cheap but good quality food will have both an economic and social impact on a country.
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