The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	amogles
	Seeing there are labels such as Fair Trade that assure farmers are nice to people in far away countries, why can we not have a similar label for domestic produce?

Wouldn't work. People support initiatives like Fair Trade because of post-colonial guilt. After all, when was the last time you saw Madonna adopting in Sheffield?

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	I thought not long ago you were telling us that under Brexit, British agriculture is basically fooked anyway. You know, because of lorries in Dover and all that. So in other words, that Dover thing isn't that bad after all? Why otherwise would a farmer want to employ people to pick fruit that he can't sell anyway?

	Quote:	amogles
	Nevertheless, Marton has claimed that these products will become un-sellable post Brexit, so if he is right, why worry about who is going to pick them?

Not me?

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Wouldn't work. People support initiatives like Fair Trade because of post-colonial guilt. After all, when was the last time you saw Madonna adopting in Sheffield?

I guess that lets the millennials off the hook for once, right? You’d only have to be a boomer and/or older to suffer from ‘post-colonial guilt’, right?

[marton]

	Quote:
	Not picking on you in particular, but it's interesting how this notion has migrated from right to left in recent years. It shouldn't really be a surprise that British workers are unwilling to sleep 20 to a caravan and work for appalling wages after all the gains made in workers' rights over the last century. A properly-planned Brexit might have addressed that. Instead it looks like the Neo-Tories want to drag us all back to the 19th century instead.

There are some issues here.
Firstly, people are not yet ready to pay the sort of prices for their fruit that would be needed.
Secondly, worker's rights need to be properly enforced.
Thirdly, the number of British workers willing to do unpleasant manual jobs is decreasing.

[marton]

	Quote:
	Boris Johnson has admitted there will be some customs checks for goods crossing the Irish Sea after Brexit but insisted they would apply only to items destined for the Republic of Ireland. In an interview on Sky News on Sunday morning, the prime minister promised that “there won’t be checks” despite warnings to the contrary in leaked Treasury documents.

Source

Brexit has been coloured by lies from prominent politicians since the beginning: msnsick:

[Aeneas]

	Quote:
	I guess that lets the millennials off the hook for once, right? You’d only have to be a boomer and/or older to suffer from ‘post-colonial guilt’, right?

Nope. Woke guilt is collective and inherited - millennials are are still on the hook if white and/or straight and/or male.

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Nope. Woke guilt is collective and inherited - millennials are are still on the hook if white and/or straight and/or male.

This thread just keeps giving.

[John William]

To my mind the cost of food that's currently comes in plastic containers or uses plastic wrapping will have
to increase in price anyway, as stores and various other producers & retailers adjust to the inevitable
switch ( or substantial reduction in plastic ) to non plastic containers and wrappers.

[bowlie]

Will Atiya have an effect on the election? Or the one behind it?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Sandgrounder
	Also you seem to be desperately clinging onto the food angle whilst completely ignoring the rest of the jobs being done by foreigners. It’s not all about picking cabbages for export, is it?

When I think of all the jobs in the UK hospitality and travel industry that are taken by migrant workers, I reckon there's going to be a panic in certain cities at the lack of workers prepared to put those hours in, or people who are fluent in multiple languages.

When I worked in travel, we had a 24hrs team who handled all the issues with clients travelling into or out of the UK. One of the team leads was a wonderful Hungarian guy who was fluent in 7 European languages, and his small team spoke about 20 languages between them. Many were former cabin crew who had to be trained to do the job, but they had the language skills so were well worth the investment by the company.

	Quote:	marton
	Thirdly, the number of British workers willing to do unpleasant manual jobs is decreasing.

With agriculture in particular, it's not so much that it's umpleasant work, but that it's seasonal. I had a seasonal job for a few of years in the late 80s/early 90s that ran from Sept-April. I also had a council flat at the time. Every summer I'd be threatened with bailiffs before my benefits would begin because it took that long for them to work out what you were entitled to, etc... Total ballache every time, but I could manage it because I didn't have kids to worry about, and I could always borrow a fiver off my mum.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Nope. Woke guilt is collective and inherited - millennials are are still on the hook if white and/or straight and/or male.

Many people have started to acknowledge or better said - understand the privileges they were born with, would you call that awakening?

	Quote:	Aeneas
	Wouldn't work. People support initiatives like Fair Trade because of post-colonial guilt. After all, when was the last time you saw Madonna adopting in Sheffield?

Wouldn't work because they are used with cheap food and think this is the way it should be, nobody explained them the economics beneath it all. And nobody explained how common market functions and that the British farmers too received EU funds. The whole Brexit affair was a mess, it's not the result that bothers so many, it's the way people were convinced to vote Leave. And the way that this process is still going on.

Oh, and Fair trade has not so much to do with post-colonialism guilt lately. Lots of people in lots of countries buy products with this label because they are happier to buy a product where everyone gets a better deal. I do too - coffee, tea, sugar, fruits, etc. When I'm back home, as many people there, I try to buy stuff directly from small farms, local eco-businesses. It's more expensive than made in Germany, but better quality. More substance, more tradition. Cheap supermarket imported stuff help a lot of people get by though, that's not a thing I'd ever look down to.
It's the same as with more ecologically produced or environmentally friendly stuff. Maybe that is awakening too? Hmm, who knows, I'm always confused by these terms.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	amogles
	I don't feel much sympathy for an industry that claims it can only survive if it exploits people under such conditions. Seeing there are labels such as Fair Trade that assure farmers are nice to people in far away countries, why can we not have a similar label for domestic produce? I for one wouldn't mind forking out a bit more for it.

It’s basically Brexit I’m a nutshell. Middle class, university educated types can’t understand why working class types voted Brexit in the first place. “Who will pick all the fruit?”, they say. How about “who will pay a decent wage to pick it?!”, we’ve already seen wage inflation as a result of the Brexit vote.

“What about our rights! You’ll end our free movement of people!”, they whine. Completely missing the point that it is almost exclusively well educated, middle class types that benefit from Free Movement of People. All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor where once there were Brits.

Seeing as Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (you can’t just rock up somewhere and expect a welcome, under EU law you need proof of income, savings, rental contract, health insurance), then the loss of rights argument soon falls on deaf ears.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Middle class, university educated types can’t understand why working class types voted Brexit in the first place. “Who will pick all the fruit?”, they say.

Codswallop!

We know exactly why the working classes voted for Brexit. It was because they were repeatedly told that everything that afflicted them was down to EU law rather than UK law, which was total bollocks. If you were British, you'd know that.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	“What about our rights! You’ll end our free movement of people!”, they whine. Completely missing the point that it is almost exclusively well educated, middle class types that benefit from Free Movement of People. All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor where once there were Brits.

Codswallop!

I'm very working class, didn't go to uni either, have a Greek partner and my cousin's wife is Spanish. My mates and colleagues in the UK include Polish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Greek, French, German and Belgian. My dentist in the UK was from Skiathos and my doctor was Dutch. Two of my bosses had Cypriot husbands and another had a French wife. My Greek partner worked for a Dutch company in the UK.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Seeing as Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (you can’t just rock up somewhere and expect a welcome, under EU law you need proof of income, savings, rental contract, health insurance), then the loss of rights argument soon falls on deaf ears.

Literally dozens of my friends have worked in various EU countries. Currently, there are still some working and living in Spain, Germany and the Netherlands. The young lad (24) who worked on my gardens in the UK regularly works in Germany in spring and autumn, and has done so for the last 5yrs. The only 'qualifications' he has are a portfolio of his work and being a grafter. It's his reputation and vision get him the repeat work. Also, our Greek nephew's first job in the UK was snow clearing and gritting in Scotland.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It’s basically Brexit I’m a nutshell. Middle class, university educated types can’t understand why working class types voted Brexit in the first place. “Who will pick all the fruit?”, they say. How about “who will pay a decent wage to pick it?!”, we’ve already seen wage inflation as a result of the Brexit vote. “What about our rights! You’ll end our free movement of people!”, they whine. Completely missing the point that it is almost exclusively well educated, middle class types that benefit from Free Movement of People. All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor where once there were Brits. Seeing as Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (you can’t just rock up somewhere and expect a welcome, under EU law you need proof of income, savings, rental contract, health insurance), then the loss of rights argument soon falls on deaf ears.

Do you see the contradiction between your two statements?

	Quote:
	All the working classes see is Romanians and Polish workers next to them on the shop floor

&

	Quote:
	Free Movement of People is basically a myth in the first place for low skilled UK workers who are unlikely to speak any other European languages (

Or are you claiming Romanians and Polish workers are all fluent English speakers?

According to the UK Govt. National statistics report from 28th November the most workers by Country of birth:
1. India
2. Poland
3. Pakistan
4. Romania
5. Republic of Ireland

You see 1. and 3. on the list are not from EU countries so the working classes are more likely to see Indians and Pakistani workers next to them on the shop floor; Brexit will not change that?

Actually it is the middle class, university-educated types who perpetuate the myth that the Brits will rush to farm work if wages improve.
The factors (range of job opportunities, education, entertainment) that caused Brits to move from rural areas to the cities will not be reversed by wage increases.

Anyway, with a UK unemployment rate of only 3.8% there is not a huge pool of people prepared to exchange London for deepest Somerset!

Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.

Try putting an X in both Labour & Lib Dems to be double share the Tories don't get in.

No doubt if the Tories win you will claim people did not know what they were voting for, just like the BREXIT vote & since the referendum the country has changed it's mind

[amogles]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I'm very working class, didn't go to uni either, have a Greek partner and my cousin's wife is Spanish. My mates and colleagues in the UK include Polish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Greek, French, German and Belgian. My dentist in the UK was from Skiathos and my doctor was Dutch. Two of my bosses had Cypriot husbands and another had a French wife. My Greek partner worked for a Dutch company in the UK.

Not quite.

You've been on the EF long enough to be aware of the constant flow of some entitled middle-class high-income type coming up and starting a thread moaning about something which is 100% down to that person's inability to integrate, primarily because they aren't making an effort to learn the language, but also largely because they are unable to accept that things are different here culturally and they need to adapt their attitude and expectations. In other words, they obviously are intellectually capable seeing they got the education and job that they have, but they are failing to apply that intellectual ability to actually integrating.

Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.

Why is this? I think it has much to do with English supposedly being world language. You get lots of foreign-language movies in Switzerland. In Britain you would have to seek out an arts cinema to find them, and even then they're probably dubbed. Big countries don't understand small countries in the way small countries understand big countries.

So when it comes to FMOP, Britain is culturally disadvantaged, and the education system unfortunately is not really making much of an effort to make up on the lost ground.

I know there are plenty of exceptions. I know an English guy who went to Germany to work as a bricklayer. He arrived without speaking a word of German but picked it up on the job. He worked hard and got promoted and now he is a sort of foreman or manager, watching out over the other guys. People who are smart, bold, or willing to take risks do well in any environment. But you don't here much Lancashire accent on the assembly florr of the Mercedes factory in Sindelfingen, and this despite the guys who do work there having take home salaries that would make many people from disadvantaged pockets of Britain drool with envy.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Try putting an X in both Labour & Lib Dems to be double share the Tories don't get in. No doubt if the Tories win you will claim people did not know what they were voting for, just like the BREXIT vote & since the referendum the country has changed it's mind

No, because that would invalidate my vote, you silly boy. Did we roll out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Will I? Oh my. The last part of your sentence is almost right! Well done!

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Lots of tweets and direct mail urging folk to vote tactically "not Tory". We had one through our door from our Labour candidate saying that based on the last election, Lib Dems can take our constituency if Labour voters vote for them too. Interesting.

Right now the polls seem to be showing LD support collapsing, with Labour being the main beneficiary.

So it's back to a two horse race.

	Quote:	amogles
	Right now the polls seem to be showing LD support collapsing, with Labour being the main beneficiary. So it's back to a two horse race.

Depends on the area.