The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Codswallop! We know exactly why the working classes voted for Brexit. It was because they were repeatedly told that everything that afflicted them was down to EU law rather than UK law, which was total bollocks. If you were British, you'd know that. Codswallop! I'm very working class, didn't go to uni either, have a Greek partner and my cousin's wife is Spanish. My mates and colleagues in the UK include Polish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Greek, French, German and Belgian. My dentist in the UK was from Skiathos and my doctor was Dutch. Two of my bosses had Cypriot husbands and another had a French wife. My Greek partner worked for a Dutch company in the UK. Literally dozens of my friends have worked in various EU countries. Currently, there are still some working and living in Spain, Germany and the Netherlands. The young lad (24) who worked on my gardens in the UK regularly works in Germany in spring and autumn, and has done so for the last 5yrs. The only 'qualifications' he has are a portfolio of his work and being a grafter. It's his reputation and vision get him the repeat work. Also, our Greek nephew's first job in the UK was snow clearing and gritting in Scotland.

You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm. The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common.

Shame that after all this time you still can't move on from the "they were lied to" narrative, and the more subtle, "they weren't capable of knowing better" argument. To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	amogles
	In other words, they obviously are intellectually capable seeing they got the education and job that they have, but they are failing to apply that intellectual ability to actually integrating.

Common sense is not that common though.

	Quote:	amogles
	Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.

Greek doctors in Germany is 'a thing'. Met several of them on holiday in Greece, and there are a few in Zurich that I'm aware of.
http://en.protothema.gr/bloomberg-25...ng-in-germany/
British medical staff tend to be sough after in Australia.

	Quote:	amogles
	Why is this? I think it has much to do with English supposedly being world language. You get lots of foreign-language movies in Switzerland. In Britain you would have to seek out an arts cinema to find them, and even then they're probably dubbed.

BBC2. Channel 4. Walter Presents for tv series. You've been out of the UK a long time.

	Quote:	amogles
	I know there are plenty of exceptions. I know an English guy who went to Germany to work as a bricklayer. He arrived without speaking a word of German but picked it up on the job. He worked hard and got promoted and now he is a sort of foreman or manager, watching out over the other guys. People who are smart, bold, or willing to take risks do well in any environment. But you don't here much Lancashire accent on the assembly florr of the Mercedes factory in Sindelfingen, and this despite the guys who do work there having take home salaries that would make many people from disadvantaged pockets of Britain drool with envy.

There are a lot more exceptions than you realise. I suggest you make yourself familiar with this. It's quite an eye opener.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ship,_2018.png

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Shame that after all this time you still can't move on from the "they were lied to" narrative, and the more subtle, "they weren't capable of knowing better" argument. To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.

For the sake of political balance, Stanley Johnson only last week stated that most of the British electorate is thick.

Er, we were lied to.

Repeatedly.

Let's not try to rewrite history, eh?

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm.

My experience, is that of a native born Brit who spent the first 50yrs of her life living in a medium sized former mining town. Your experience is of a....???
I'm not Londoner where every wave of immigration is immediately felt. In my town, it's usually 2nd or 3rd generation who move out to 'the sticks'.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common.

And I'll refer you to the same chart as Amogles. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ship,_2018.png

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.

My home town voted 63.9% Leave. I'm from a Brexiter bubble. I'm up to my neck in them every time I'm there. You should try writing like a native Brit sometime.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	amogles
	I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK. .

There are though... Maybe there aren't that many doctors* because being a doctor in UK is still better than in many other places, but plenty of British in finance, IT, education and other fields of course.

*Btw, it's a positive thing I would say. You wouldn't like your native UK to pay for these people's education and then see them going to work abroad by the thousands..

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm. .

Definitely not the only one here, if you want to be fair you wouldn't pick on Blueangel...

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common. .

British companies took advantages of freedom of goods and free movement of capital too, and that wasn't their god given right before EU.

If you want to have one you can't have it without the other, they're meant to compensate.

	Quote:	amogles
	Back in the UK I was treated by French, German, Dutch, even Swiss doctors and dentists. I never met a British doctor or dentist here in Switzerland. And this although you might logically expect things to be the other way around because I'm sure it's better to be a doctor in Switzerland than a doctor in the UK.

You'd be wrong. The UK is one of the highest paying countries for doctors (particularly GPs), earnings are roughly on a par with Switzerland and there is a significant domestic undersupply. Given that Switzerland is rather more expensive than the UK there is little incentive for UK doctors to come here.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	You'd be wrong. The UK is one of the highest paying countries for doctors (particularly GPs), earnings are roughly on a par with Switzerland and there is a significant domestic undersupply. Given that Switzerland is rather more expensive than the UK there is little incentive for UK doctors to come here.

Seeing the NHS has a serious recruitment problem despite paying good wages would suggest that it's still not an enviable place to work.

	Quote:	amogles
	Seeing the NHS has a serious recruitment problem despite paying good wages would suggest that it's still not an enviable place to work.

Doctors are well paid but too few trained. Everyone else gets bargain basement wages.

[amogles]

	Quote:	greenmount
	British companies took advantages of freedom of goods and free movement of capital too, and that wasn't their god given right before EU. If you want to have one you can't have it without the other, they're meant to compensate.

Maybe the people benefitting from the free movement of goods and capital are not the same people who could be benefitting from FMOP. And mostly not in the same part of the country either. In other words, one bunch get all the advantages and the other bunch get all the disadvantages.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Doctors are well paid but too few trained. Everyone else gets bargain basement wages.

I don't think I've ever met a British nurse in Switzerland either.

	Quote:	amogles
	I don't think I've ever met a British nurse in Switzerland either.

I have.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	greenmount
	*Btw, it's a positive thing I would say. You wouldn't like your native UK to pay for these people's education and then see them going to work abroad by the thousands...

True, and we've been down this road many times before when discussing the young eastern Europeans leaving to find work, thereby causing a skills shortage in their home country. Unfortunately...

	Quote:
	The United Kingdom provides the largest source of overseas doctors or International Medical Graduates (IMGs) working in Australia.

https://advancemed.com.au/blog/uk-doctors-australia/

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	And I'll refer you to the same chart as Amogles. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ship,_2018.png

You may roll your eyes, but I have to ask you genuinely, do you understand how to read statistics and charts? And have you read the rest of the report from which that one came?

I'll make it easy for you. The statistics show that UK citizens with tertiary education are more likely to live in another EU country and that only 1.1% of UK citizens of working age even live in another EU country. The chart you posted just shows that there is a similar proportion of low skilled UK migrants living in other EU countries as the proportion of low skilled workers in the UK.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...w#Key_messages

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	I have.

Me too. Also a dental nurse.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You may roll your eyes, but I have to ask you genuinely, do you understand how to read statistics and charts? And have you read the rest of the report from which that one came?

Quid pro quo. Prove you're British.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You do seem to like to talk about yourself a lot. Just because you know of someone, or have experienced something, it doesn't make it the norm. The fact of matter remains that of all EU countries, the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People. Of those that do live abroad, the majority are pensioners, early retirees and high skilled professionals. Auf Wiedersehen, Pet isn't that common. Shame that after all this time you still can't move on from the "they were lied to" narrative, and the more subtle, "they weren't capable of knowing better" argument. To paraphrase Dominic Cummings, you should probably get out of your bubble and meet some real Brexiteers, you would be surprised at what you learn.

You claim "the UK has the smallest proportion of its population that have taken advantage of Free Movement of People" but this link that you already pointed to shows Germany has the smallest proportion of its population that............!
It might be more educative to think about why UK and Germany who are two of the most prosperous EU countries have the smallest number of....
I do not see many Brits wanting to work in Romania or Poland

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	Seeing the NHS has a serious recruitment problem despite paying good wages would suggest that it's still not an enviable place to work.

Thanks for confirming my point that it takes more than a decent wage to make some jobs, like farming, attractive.

I suspect a good reason that we see only a few Brits working here in medicine is that they really need to have good Swiss German to communicate with their patients whereas in Finance or IT the working language is mostly English with maybe some Hoch Deutsch needed.

Contrariwise, one of the benefits for foreign medics of working in the UK is that English is a language that is useful worldwide.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Thanks for confirming my point that it takes more than a decent wage to make some jobs, like farming, attractive. I suspect a good reason that we see only a few Brits working here in medicine is that they really need to have good Swiss German to communicate with their patients whereas in Finance or IT the working language is mostly English with maybe some Hoch Deutsch needed. Contrariwise, one of the benefits for foreign medics of working in the UK is that English is a language that is useful worldwide.

Why so much accent on farming though? It's not like UK is Italy or Spain in this area. I would say constructions and hospitality will be the areas to suffer most from labour shortage in case of Brexit, that work....not piece of cake either. In the meantime you have work force shortage in the countries where immigrants are coming from because they can always get higher salaries elsewhere. EU could think of different plans to develop all regions across EU. I'm not that happy with the current state of affairs. Structural funds were given only to a selected few. The whole process of attributing EU funds has major flaws. Local companies can't compete against EU giants. Lots of problems on the other side too.
EU too needs some changes. And that is coming from someone who is pro-Europe/pro-EU.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	I suspect a good reason that we see only a few Brits working here in medicine is that they really need to have good Swiss German to communicate with their patients whereas in Finance or IT the working language is mostly English with maybe some Hoch Deutsch needed. Contrariwise, one of the benefits for foreign medics of working in the UK is that English is a language that is useful worldwide.

However, there are still plenty of non-Swiss people working in Swiss hospitals, including doctors and nurses. In some departments I'd even venture to say Swiss-born staff are the minority. Maybe the German doctors have it relatively easy with the language (especially if they're from the south of Germany, as many are), but not so the Greek or Bulgarians or even Iranians. So why do other nations manage to acquire those skills when Brits fail (or don't even try)?