The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	So there, we are I'll call it there. Ive paused from posting on this (very interesting) thread over the last few months because it just became impossible to debate anything because of the clique who will gang up on any response outweighing any chance of keeping up against the sheer weight of posts. I'll leggit again for a bit and try again in a few more months. You are steadily destroying the ability to reasonably debate anythign on thsi thread when it doesn't match your exact labour / remain stance and its frustrating that what used to be a really interesting and highlighting topic of conversation has ended up like this. I know there will be replies after this reminding me its my fault, I started it, you didnt say that-here-then, this wasnt proved and your point is a lot better than mine, but you just overwhelm people who try to argue. Even Tony Clifton, whoever he may be, is going to give up eventually.

I’ll hang around for a little while longer, thanks for opening my eyes here. Listening to the “clique” one would think Brexiteers and Conservatives were just unable to stand up to their superior intellect!

One recent discussion I had on here was regarding the changing political landscape in the UK, and how the Labour Party no longer represents the working classes. Jon Ashworth was caught making similar comments but you can bet as with that poll result, there are those on here who will still refuse to accept or challenge their preheld views.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’ll hang around for a little while longer, thanks for opening my eyes here. Listening to the “clique” one would think Brexiteers and Conservatives were just unable to stand up to their superior intellect! One recent discussion I had on here was regarding the changing political landscape in the UK, and how the Labour Party no longer represents the working classes. Jon Ashworth was caught making similar comments but you can bet as with that poll result, there are those on here who will still refuse to accept or challenge their preheld views.

‘Preheld views’ of the remainer voting base were that the Brexit process would be an unmitigated disaster and here we are.

10 years of Tories have caused, for the average man on the street, a serious drop in living standards and public services.

BoJo’s sudden ability to find billions to fund a spending spree, suddenly after 10 years of stripped back funding, and to play the yes-man on dozens of tabloid-style issues is deeply suspicious to many.

I think people with opposing views to you are smarter than you dare to believe.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’ll hang around for a little while longer, thanks for opening my eyes here. Listening to the “clique” one would think Brexiteers and Conservatives were just unable to stand up to their superior intellect! One recent discussion I had on here was regarding the changing political landscape in the UK, and how the Labour Party no longer represents the working classes. Jon Ashworth was caught making similar comments but you can bet as with that poll result, there are those on here who will still refuse to accept or challenge their preheld views.

What one is supposed to make out of this exchange between you and Mikers?
There are quite a few regular pro-Brexit/pro-Tories posters on this thread who are always in agreement. Shall I call it a clique too? Would that bring more exchange and less negativity back into discussion?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	‘Preheld views’ of the remainer voting base were that the Brexit process would be an unmitigated disaster and here we are. 10 years of Tories have caused, for the average man on the street, a serious drop in living standards and public services. BoJo’s sudden ability to find billions to fund a spending spree, suddenly after 10 years of stripped back funding, and to play the yes-man on dozens of tabloid-style issues is deeply suspicious to many. I think people with opposing views to you are smarter than you dare to believe.

We keep hearing about “disasters”, but we’re still waiting for anything of the sort to happen. The country is still running fine in spite of any disaster talk.

You’re also wrong about the drop in living standards for the average man on the street. The number of people in employment has increased under the Tories. Wages have increased under the Tories. The lowest paid have experienced the largest real term percentage increases in hourly wages under the Tories. The minimum wage has increased under the Tories. This is why the average man on the street is turning their back on Labour.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	We keep hearing about “disasters”, but we’re still waiting for anything of the sort to happen. The country is still running fine in spite of any disaster talk. You’re also wrong about the drop in living standards for the average man on the street. The number of people in employment has increased under the Tories. Wages have increased under the Tories. The lowest paid have experienced the largest real term percentage increases in hourly wages under the Tories. The minimum wage has increased under the Tories. This is why the average man on the street is turning their back on Labour.

That's the famous "spin" version.

The reality is different and you know it.

Employment went up with the advent of zero-hour contracts so any figures can be massaged and manipulated.

Anyone would think you only get your information about the UK from Tory websites and right wing press. Have you ever actually been there recently? Ever been there at all?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	We keep hearing about “disasters”, but we’re still waiting for anything of the sort to happen. The country is still running fine in spite of any disaster talk. You’re also wrong about the drop in living standards for the average man on the street. The number of people in employment has increased under the Tories. Wages have increased under the Tories. The lowest paid have experienced the largest real term percentage increases in hourly wages under the Tories. The minimum wage has increased under the Tories. This is why the average man on the street is turning their back on Labour.

This reads like a direct copy paste from one of those nonsense Tory Facebook memes.

YouGov poll du jour...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...MRP-model.html

(taken from a right-wing tabloid for balance - things must be bad )

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	We keep hearing about “disasters”, but we’re still waiting for anything of the sort to happen. The country is still running fine in spite of any disaster talk. You’re also wrong about the drop in living standards for the average man on the street. The number of people in employment has increased under the Tories. Wages have increased under the Tories. The lowest paid have experienced the largest real term percentage increases in hourly wages under the Tories. The minimum wage has increased under the Tories. This is why the average man on the street is turning their back on Labour.

The rise in food banks alone belie this as does the increase of children living in poverty.
Teachers, for example, have experienced a wage decrease, effectively, over the past eight years. You clearly are not British or you would have had experience of state services NHS, the police, social services, education - working daily miracles despite Tory cuts. Not because of any of the mess they have caused.

What you write above is merely panacea spin and believing it is, of course, your prerogative. That doesn't mean it's everyone else's.

Can the insults. You're simply lowering the bar.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	YouGov poll du jour... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...MRP-model.html (taken from a right-wing tabloid for balance - things must be bad )

No matter what you think of Boris Johnson, he has a unique talent for awkward photos.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	No matter what you think of Boris Johnson, he has a unique talent for awkward photos.

He's soured his milk...

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	That's the famous "spin" version. The reality is different and you know it. Employment went up with the advent of zero-hour contracts so any figures can be massaged and manipulated. Anyone would think you only get your information about the UK from Tory websites and right wing press. Have you ever actually been there recently? Ever been there at all?

I live partly in the UK. The reality is what I've described. You refuse to accept the reality because you likely live in a Swiss bubble and get your "spin" version from left wing press and websites. We can both play this game.

I actually get my information from statistics, those that many on here have trouble grasping. The ONS and ASHE, OBR EFO and IFS provide my data. It's all there in black and white, if you’re willing to look at it. The poorest under the conservatives has seen the biggest wage increases, and the richest have seen the biggest wage decreases over the course of the last decade. The tax system has the top 1% of earners contributing more than a third of all income tax.

The biggest problem is that wage increases haven’t been able to keep up with inflation, yet this is a hangover from the last economic crash. And together with poor growth, is a problem that is seen across much of Europe. The fact remains though, that the poorer you are in the UK, the more likely you are to have seen a payrise over the past decade.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	The rise in food banks alone belie this as does the increase of children living in poverty. Teachers, for example, have experienced a wage decrease, effectively, over the past eight years. You clearly are not British or you would have had experience of state services NHS, the police, social services, education - working daily miracles despite Tory cuts. Not because of any of the mess they have caused. What you write above is merely panacea spin and believing it is, of course, your prerogative. That doesn't mean it's everyone else's. Can the insults. You're simply lowering the bar.

I’ve not insulted anyone, point out where I have or stop lying.

There have been no Tory cuts to the NHS. The budget has increased every year since 2010. And while we’re on the subject of the NHS, people need to understand it can’t be fixed. Never. I’m old enough to remember when the last Labour government was running it and it was still terrible. Winter crises, budget deficits, Mid Staffs scandal and mountains of PFI debt it’s been left saddled with. It wasn’t without reason there was a TV show called “Can Gerry Robinson Fix the NHS” after 10 years of Labour rule. Then you can look to Wales where Labour are currently running the NHS and see how well that’s performing. This election has been run on a lie that the “NHS is up for sale”, it’s clearly not true yet no one seems to care.

And food banks. Always the food banks. Well let’s look a little more into where they’re most in use. More statistics I’m afraid so you better cover your eyes https://www.statista.com/chart/14092...-foodbanks-uk/. Wales (non Tory), Scotland (non Tory) and the North West (majority of seats held by Labour MPs). This is only Trussel Trust food banks, but they do run 2 out of every 3 food banks in the UK. It should also be noted that a rise in food bank use isn’t limited to the UK. https://www.thelocal.de/20190919/ala...ers-in-germany

What the food bank map also demonstrates is the key reason why Jeremy Corbyn should never get the keys to Number 10. Despite what they say, socialists don’t want to end poverty. What would they do without it? How would they define themselves? How would they get people to vote for them? It’s one of the reasons socialism never works. Outside of London, you can just go to your nearest Labour safe seat to see this in action.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	No matter what you think of Boris Johnson, he has a unique talent for awkward photos.

I actually think this is an excellent photo of him! Makes him more likeable.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I live partly in the UK. The reality is what I've described. You refuse to accept the reality because you likely live in a Swiss bubble and get your "spin" version from left wing press and websites. We can both play this game. I actually get my information from statistics, those that many on here have trouble grasping. The ONS and ASHE, OBR EFO and IFS provide my data. It's all there in black and white, if you’re willing to look at it. The poorest under the conservatives has seen the biggest wage increases, and the richest have seen the biggest wage decreases over the course of the last decade. The tax system has the top 1% of earners contributing more than a third of all income tax. The biggest problem is that wage increases haven’t been able to keep up with inflation, yet this is a hangover from the last economic crash. And together with poor growth, is a problem that is seen across much of Europe. The fact remains though, that the poorer you are in the UK, the more likely you are to have seen a payrise over the past decade.

I've got family and friends that work in the NHS, fire service and teaching, as well as manufacturing and retail, both on the front-line and at management level. Parents and ageing relations worried about heating and eating. You can present them with all the "black and white fluff stats" you like but their reality is very different. This is what the Tories are very bad at facing up to, and explains much of the fake news and spin they are trying to blind-side people with.

Voters aren't bothered with what the ONS churns out, they look at what is left in their bank account at the end of the month, whether they can get to see a GP within 2 weeks and whether their kids' teachers are leaving in droves driving up classroom sizes and squeezing resources.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Voters aren't bothered with what the ONS churns out, they look at what is left in their bank account at the end of the month, whether they can get to see a GP within 2 weeks and whether their kids' teachers are leaving in droves driving up classroom sizes and squeezing resources.

Which is why most of them will vote Conservative on Thursday

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Which is why most of them will vote Conservative on Thursday

LOL - only if they've been sniffing glue beforehand.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I’ve not insulted anyone, point out where I have or stop lying.

You are using "clique" and passive aggressive condescending insults like "superior intelligence" when it is clear you believe those with opposing views to be inferior. Ergo, insult. Don't accuse me of lying again.

	Quote:
	And food banks. Always the food banks. Well let’s look a little more into where they’re most in use. More statistics I’m afraid so you better cover your eyes https://www.statista.com/chart/14092...-foodbanks-uk/. Wales (non Tory), Scotland (non Tory) and the North West (majority of seats held by Labour MPs). This is only Trussel Trust food banks, but they do run 2 out of every 3 food banks in the UK. It should also be noted that a rise in food bank use isn’t limited to the UK. https://www.thelocal.de/20190919/ala...ers-in-germany What the food bank map also demonstrates is the key reason why Jeremy Corbyn should never get the keys to Number 10. Despite what they say, socialists don’t want to end poverty. What would they do without it? How would they define themselves? How would they get people to vote for them? It’s one of the reasons socialism never works. Outside of London, you can just go to your nearest Labour safe seat to see this in action.

Those are only some of them. I'm in a Tory area and there are three local, privately (Church) run food banks. One is less than a mile from some very expensive property. So no, again, you do not have a clue and are picking only those stats which support your tunnel vision. But again, as I said eons ago, that's what stats do: support whatever one wants them to support. If you don't understand that then there is no point.

	Quote:
	I've got family and friends that work in the NHS, fire service and teaching, as well as manufacturing and retail, both on the front-line and at management level. Parents and ageing relations worried about heating and eating. You can present them with all the "black and white fluff stats" you like but their reality is very different. This is what the Tories are very bad at facing up to, and explains much of the fake news and spin they are trying to blind-side people with. Voters aren't bothered with what the ONS churns out, they look at what is left in their bank account at the end of the month, whether they can get to see a GP within 2 weeks and whether their kids' teachers are leaving in droves driving up classroom sizes and squeezing resources.

Yep. This. This. This.

	Quote:	greenmount
	I actually think this is an excellent photo of him! Makes him more likeable.

He looks like Nick Park sculpted him at Aardman.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Which is why most of them will vote Conservative on Thursday

Maybe yes, maybe no. Will you be still on this thread after Thursday, regardless of the results?

Musicchick... you appear to share TC's views. I'd love a positive exchange on the matter, what do you say?