The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I live partly in the UK. The reality is what I've described. You refuse to accept the reality because you likely live in a Swiss bubble and get your "spin" version from left wing press and websites. We can both play this game. .

We can?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I actually get my information from statistics, those that many on here have trouble grasping. .

I agree, I would include quite a few people here. Probably you wouldn't be happy to see my list though.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The poorest under the conservatives has seen the biggest wage increases, and the richest have seen the biggest wage decreases over the course of the last decade. The tax system has the top 1% of earners contributing more than a third of all income tax. The biggest problem is that wage increases haven’t been able to keep up with inflation, yet this is a hangover from the last economic crash. And together with poor growth, is a problem that is seen across much of Europe. The fact remains though, that the poorer you are in the UK, the more likely you are to have seen a payrise over the past decade.

Which, if true (haven't checked those numbers myself), is refuting a lot of claims from the Brexit campaign.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	The only bit I find funny is the almost obsessive agenda to assert that it’s only Labour supporters doing it. It’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. THAT is the bit I’m finding ridiculous. The fanatical refusal to believe that the right wing element also has its share of head-cases. But nobody will present you with a detailed set of links so it can’t be true, right.

Here we are back to the old comprehension and reading again.

Gets into an argument over what constitutes more vs. most but can't tell the difference between fewer and none.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

	Quote:	amogles
	Here we are back to the old comprehension and reading again. Gets into an argument over what constitutes more vs. most but can't tell the difference between fewer and none. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Do clarify, sir. Fewer and none of what?

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	What ARE you banging on about now? Fewer and none of what?

It would be nicer if some posts wouldn't be so accusatory.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	What ARE you banging on about now? Fewer and none of what?

Reading my dear. It's something they teach you at school.

	Quote:	greenmount
	It would be nicer if some posts wouldn't be so accusatory.

Modified accordingly...

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	You are using "clique" and passive aggressive condescending insults like "superior intelligence" when it is clear you believe those with opposing views to be inferior. Ergo, insult. Don't accuse me of lying again. Those are only some of them. I'm in a Tory area and there are three local, privately (Church) run food banks. One is less than a mile from some very expensive property. So no, again, you do not have a clue and are picking only those stats which support your tunnel vision. But again, as I said eons ago, that's what stats do: support whatever one wants them to support. If you don't understand that then there is no point.

Who needs statistics when one can confirm ones bias via anecdotal evidence? Why do we even need the ONS in the first place?!

And you need to look up the definition of insult. You won't find one in anything that I've written, you've merely chosen to take offense at it. And to think that after either you or one of your gang called me a "snowflake".

	Quote:	amogles
	Reading my dear. It's something they teach you at school.

You'll have to refer back, I'm afraid. The thread moved on significantly.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	And you need to look up the definition of insult. You won't find one in anything that I've written, you've merely chosen to take offense at it. And to think that after either you or one of your gang called me a "snowflake".

Derogatory or patronising remarks are rather insulting.

We had this discussion before. E.g. - one can write totally nasty racist stuff not using a single nasty/racist term.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Who needs statistics when one can confirm ones bias via anecdotal evidence? Why do we even need the ONS in the first place?!

You seem to miss the point that people vote on what is happening in their own lives, not figures pulled from some abstract stats site.

Anecdotal it might be but the reality is that is how people vote. Piecharts telling someone the government says that they have never had it so good rings hollow when they are down to their last 17 quid and Christmas is just round the corner.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Maybe yes, maybe no. Will you be still on this thread after Thursday, regardless of the results?

Of course I will, there will be much to discuss! We’ll learn how many racists live in the UK, we’ll hear some interesting excuses as to why certain partys haven’t performed as well as expected, we may even get treated to the unedifying prospect of Labour claiming victory despite not being the largest party. Or we could be getting ready for another election in February time because the DUP and Lib Dem’s refuse to prop up the Labour Party.

I’m certain that the Conservatives will be the largest party, I expect them to win a majority and I’ll be really eager to here some of the views as to how such a terrible Party that has RUINED the country be re-elected to power.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You’re also wrong about the drop in living standards for the average man on the street. The number of people in employment has increased under the Tories. Wages have increased under the Tories. The lowest paid have experienced the largest real term percentage increases in hourly wages under the Tories. The minimum wage has increased under the Tories. This is why the average man on the street is turning their back on Labour.

Haven't yet found 10 year numbers but looking at the last 5 certainly not what this study says.

	Quote:
	The median income has been rising by 2.2% on average for the last five years. Most of this is accounted for by the rise in average income for the richest fifth, which has increased by 4.7%. The poorest fifth, on the other hand, have seen a fall in income by 1.6%

I'm pretty sure this was also the 2010-2015 pattern.

The UK is one of the most unequal countries in the (developed) world - only Korea and the US are worse for wealth see here), also for income distribution (see earlier link)

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Of course I will, there will be much to discuss! We’ll learn how many racists live in the UK, we’ll hear some interesting excuses as to why certain partys haven’t performed as well as expected, we may even get treated to the unedifying prospect of Labour claiming victory despite not being the largest party. Or we could be getting ready for another election in February time because the DUP and Lib Dem’s refuse to prop up the Labour Party. I’m certain that the Conservatives will be the largest party, I expect them to win a majority and I’ll be really eager to here some of the views as to how such a terrible Party that has RUINED the country be re-elected to power.

Sounds like someone is stealing a march on preparing his confirmation bias..!

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Of course I will, there will be much to discuss! We’ll learn how many racists live in the UK, we’ll hear some interesting excuses as to why certain partys haven’t performed as well as expected, we may even get treated to the unedifying prospect of Labour claiming victory despite not being the largest party. Or we could be getting ready for another election in February time because the DUP and Lib Dem’s refuse to prop up the Labour Party. I’m certain that the Conservatives will be the largest party, I expect them to win a majority and I’ll be really eager to here some of the views as to how such a terrible Party that has RUINED the country be re-elected to power.

I remember reading quite a few articles on the increased attacks on immigrants and minorities, before and after the referendum. I suppose they were based on more people reporting physical attacks, verbal abuse etc. Is UK a racist country though? I don't think so. But shit happens, everywhere. Especially around highly divisive political events. I mean, you'd have to check the statistics... again.

I don't know who will claim victory and how, hard to say from where I stand. All I know is that people don't always vote for the best candidates/parties. Appeals to their emotions are quite strong. Maybe too strong to desist, even for the more rational ones.
We'll have to get back to this thread after quite a few/many more years, I think. Maybe it won't even make any sense to most of us.

[John William]

The Irish News - Brexit celebration posters highlighting Russia's role appear across London

[John William]

The Posters have even appeared in the Railway stations !!

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Who needs statistics when one can confirm ones bias via anecdotal evidence? Why do we even need the ONS in the first place?! And you need to look up the definition of insult. You won't find one in anything that I've written, you've merely chosen to take offense at it. And to think that after either you or one of your gang called me a "snowflake".

I haven't called you anything of the sort. I am going to say that you seem to be combative now. Not to mention patronising. I find that offensive, for the record.

An insult is something designed to cause offence. If someone takes offense it is offensive. You used "gang". Why?

I imagine if I said you appear to be part of a clique who seem intent on bashing those who think differently to you, would you be insulted?

I do not agree with you view of Tories, Labour or the state of the UK at the moment. You provide your reasons so I provide mine. It's as simple as that.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I've got family and friends that work in the NHS, fire service and teaching, as well as manufacturing and retail, both on the front-line and at management level.

You are starting to sound like Odile

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You are starting to sound like Odile

So, what's the alternative? Either everyone swots up on dry data and statistics and decides who they are going to vote for based on that, or people have shit lives which seem to be squarely caused by the current government and vote accordingly to effect change.

Are you sure you should be poking fun at someone who is not here to defend herself just to win yourself a cheap point?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You are starting to sound like Odile

Maybe we all started to look uhm...sound alike...