The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Ironically, if it hadn't been for Brexit, the country wouldn't be in this shitshow right now. So at least you've come over to the dark side and agree that Brexit is bad for the economy.

I don't believe Brexit will have much of an impact on the economy one way or the other. I can see why people see it as a risk though.

	Quote:
	But this is just speculation and opinion, no?

It’s an evidence based prediction. What Jeremy Corbyn is proposing is nothing new, and it has been tried out many times before. Each and every time it has failed, why should it work this time?

[lewton]

I missed several hundreds of comments in this thread but I'm back to celebrate the election.
Looking forward to a Tory landslide in England and an SNP landslide in Scotland.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It’s an evidence based prediction.

Is that a euphemism for "guess"? What evidence?

[TonyClifton]

The Soviet Union, East Germany, Albania, Vietnam, Cambodia, Venezuela, Romania, North Korea, Cuba.

Or perhaps there’s something in Jeremy Corbyn’s brand of socialism that makes you think it will work this time.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The Soviet Union, East Germany, Albania, Vietnam, Cambodia, Venezuela, Romania, North Korea, Cuba. Or perhaps there’s something in Jeremy Corbyn’s brand of socialism that makes you think it will work this time.

So no evidence then. That's fine, you can say it.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	The Soviet Union, East Germany, Albania, Vietnam, Cambodia, Venezuela, Romania, North Korea, Cuba. Or perhaps there’s something in Jeremy Corbyn’s brand of socialism that makes you think it will work this time.

You missed China which, on some measurements, is now the world's largest economy; on all other measurements it is only number 2

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	..Vietnam.. Or perhaps there’s something in Jeremy Corbyn’s brand of socialism that makes you think it will work this time.

Vietnam works pretty well.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...G?locations=VN

I wonder why you left China out?

Or do you just have no clue what you're talking about?

Sweden*/Norway/Denmark are also called "socialist" by many right wingers. Guess which countries regularely score pretty high up in the charts of "places I'd like to be living in"?

*Sweden possibly overdid it a bit. I'm against open borders across non-compatible economies myself since I'm realistic enough to know that a decent wealthfare system doesn't work with open borders for the world.

But yeah, generally, countries running "socialist" systems doesn't really need to fail. It's more like countries where the leadership/the whole economic system is crap. Trump right now certainly isn't a socialist, but he's destroying the US at an astonishing pace, as is the UK itself. Nothing socialistic needed to destroy your country if you go all off the market.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	No matter what you think of Boris Johnson, he has a unique talent for awkward photos.

Rude TV team disturbing Boris Johnson during his important task
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp9XoiFbZcI

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	You missed China which, on some measurements, is now the world's largest economy; on all other measurements it is only number 2

	Quote:	YuropFlyer
	Vietnam works pretty well. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...G?locations=VN I wonder why you left China out? Or do you just have no clue what you're talking about? Sweden*/Norway/Denmark are also called "socialist" by many right wingers. Guess which countries regularely score pretty high up in the charts of "places I'd like to be living in"? *Sweden possibly overdid it a bit. I'm against open borders across non-compatible economies myself since I'm realistic enough to know that a decent wealthfare system doesn't work with open borders for the world. But yeah, generally, countries running "socialist" systems doesn't really need to fail. It's more like countries where the leadership/the whole economic system is crap. Trump right now certainly isn't a socialist, but he's destroying the US at an astonishing pace, as is the UK itself. Nothing socialistic needed to destroy your country if you go all off the market.

Oh yes, remiss of me to miss out China. Just the 65 million dead. Even now China’s economic successes are only because she switched to a market economy (as is the same case in Vietnam, we won't mention the deaths there either). Some people place more emphasis on other things in life rather than economic performance though. I guess in your eyes mass censorship, internment camps and 24/7 state surveillance are reasonable prices to pay for being the second largest economy in the world?

p.s. Sweden, Norway and Denmark are not socialist states. You would know that if you had a clue what you were talking about.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Oh yes, remiss of me to miss out China. Just the 65 million dead. Even now China’s economic successes are only because she switched to a market economy (as is the same case in Vietnam, we won't mention the deaths there either). Some people place more emphasis on other things in life rather than economic performance though. I guess in your eyes mass censorship, internment camps and 24/7 state surveillance are reasonable prices to pay for being the second largest economy in the world? p.s. Sweden, Norway and Denmark are not socialist states. You would know that if you had a clue what you were talking about.

Please, could you remind us what is the point you are trying to make?
You have moved the goalposts so often and so quickly that you are making us dizzy.

I nominate you as groundkeeper of the week.

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	marton
	Please, could you remind us what is the point you are trying to make? You have moved the goalposts so often and so quickly that you are making us dizzy. I nominate you as groundkeeper of the week.

Was going to say the same. He seems to change topic whenever he seems fit.

Besides that, I'd consider his behaviour here close to trolling.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Definitely "socialists" for anyone on the right wing..

But yeah, when he's proven wrong he'll just change topic. Probably we'll end up in his next comment why BREXIT is the best thing since sliced bread, no arguments allowed.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It's outlined on the full fact website here (https://fullfact.org/economy/how-have-wages-changed/): The data they use is taken from the ONS and ASHE. Whilst average wages have stagnated, the worst off have seen the biggest increase in wages since the recession. Average wage increase remains a big problem though, and something needs to be done to change it. Solving the issue however isn't easy and it is reflected across much of Europe. The UK government needs to resolve matching wage increases with inflation. They've managed to do it in Germany. https://www.ft.com/content/0a245c28-...7-60ee53e6681d The fact of the matter is that income inequality isn't as big an issue as the Labour Party likes to make out and the the Conservatives have done much to address it. Inequality remains an issue, however this is far more related to access to services. Wealthier areas have better access to services than poorer areas. It's partly to blame for example as to why poorer pupils get the worst exam results. This is the real issue, unfortunately the solutions to resolve it are not so simple. Jeremy Corbyn seems to think that you can just tax the rich more and throw money at the problem and it will be resolved. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. The tax system is already set up so that never before have lower income workers been asked to pay a smaller share, and as I've already said, the top 1% already contribute more than a third of all income tax. You can only get so much milk from a cow.

It's called progressive taxation and those countries you say are not socialist - Sweden and Denmark, apply it too and with great results. Even here, in CH, some of us pay more than others.

Is this an argument for voting Tories? Certainly, for some. Tories won't cut the taxes for middle classes because they also need a cow to milk. So where does that leave your argument? And what was that? Taxation?

	Quote:
	Average wage increase remains a big problem though, and something needs to be done to change it. Solving the issue however isn't easy and it is reflected across much of Europe. The UK government needs to resolve matching wage increases with inflation. They've managed to do it in Germany.

UK needs too....Europe needs to....., yeah, we all know that. What was your point again and how that reflects better on the problem solving Tories?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	It's called progressive taxation and those countries you say are not socialist - Sweden and Denmark, apply it too and with great results. Even here, in CH, some of us pay more than others. Is this an argument for voting Tories? Certainly, for some. Tories won't cut the taxes for middle classes because they also need a cow to milk. So where does that leave your argument? And what was that? Taxation? UK needs too....Europe needs to....., yeah, we all know that. What was your point again and how that reflects better on the problem solving Tories?

If you’re unable to follow the debate or points that have been made then there’s little I can say to help you I’m afraid.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	Please, could you remind us what is the point you are trying to make? You have moved the goalposts so often and so quickly that you are making us dizzy. I nominate you as groundkeeper of the week.

	Quote:	YuropFlyer
	Was going to say the same. He seems to change topic whenever he seems fit. Besides that, I'd consider his behaviour here close to trolling. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model Definitely "socialists" for anyone on the right wing.. But yeah, when he's proven wrong he'll just change topic. Probably we'll end up in his next comment why BREXIT is the best thing since sliced bread, no arguments allowed.

The old I’ve been shown up making a daft argument (seriously, why can’t we all be like CHINA?!) so will now pivot to personal attacks instead. Jog on.

	Quote:	YuropFlyer
	But yeah, when he's proven wrong he'll just change topic. Probably we'll end up in his next comment why BREXIT is the best thing since sliced bread, no arguments allowed.

Nope, Brexit is a terrible idea apparently! Who knew?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Likely more of the same? Certainly nothing that is as bad as what would happen under Jeremy Corbyn. The pound already dropped last night on news of the polls tightening. He is seen as a bigger threat to the economy than Brexit.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I don't believe Brexit will have much of an impact on the economy one way or the other. I can see why people see it as a risk though.

Although I can see there are a few mixed messages in there...

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you’re unable to follow the debate or points that have been made then there’s little I can say to help you I’m afraid.

Maybe people can't follow your points because you never actually make one?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you’re unable to follow the debate or points that have been made then there’s little I can say to help you I’m afraid.

Apparently the points that have been made elude a good part of the readership, my dear.

I don't think I like your tone in these debates, you replied in a similar way to a few other people here. When asked for more explanations you add nothing to the "point", you just resort to cheap put downs because Music Chick and a couple of others from your gang have no other arguments than resorting to cheap put downs and you follow their lead. It is not an indicative of higher intelligence.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	If you’re unable to follow the debate or points that have been made then there’s little I can say to help you I’m afraid.

How dare you be so rude to a respected member of this forum.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	How dare you be so rude to a respected member of this forum.

It's even funnier because you're serious.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	How dare you be so rude to a respected member of this forum.

He was rude to Marton, to you, Sandgrounder, Rufus and probably a few more because he deemed us an unworthy clique/gang (thugs?) so everything is allowed. On the other hand, we shouldn't protest, lament, argue any idea because.....we're a clique? I guess.

	Quote:	Chuff
	It's even funnier because you're serious.

Oh, Chuff. We're in the same boat in case you didn't notice. lol

We should form a clique with other respected members. Tbh, respect is not a word I would use to describe EF encounters and I don't think people are actually pursuing it on an internet forum. Exchange, maybe.

Btw, if you took offence on the nazi thread I did mean I respected your opinion (on that thread at least), I wasn't familiar with the lack of actual meaning native speakers attribute to that expression. Sorry.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	greenmount
	He was rude to Marton, to you, Sandgrounder, Rufus and probably a few more because he deemed us an unworthy clique/gang (thugs?) so everything is allowed. On the other hand, we shouldn't protest, lament, argue any idea because.....we're a clique? I guess. Oh, Chuff. We're in the same boat in case you didn't notice. lol We should form a clique with other respected members. Tbh, respect is not a word I would use to describe EF encounters and I don't think people are actually pursuing it on an internet forum. Exchange, maybe.

Spot on.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Btw, if you took offence on the nazi thread I did mean I respected your opinion (on that thread at least), I wasn't familiar with the lack of actual meaning native speakers attribute to that expression. Sorry.

Thanks GM but I assure you that I do not take 'offence' to anything of this nature, so please never waste time thinking about that kind of stuff.