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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25201  
Old 12.12.2019, 10:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

what will today bring I wonder?

I got my postal vote sent in plenty of time, first time I've said no to a BJ.
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  #25202  
Old 12.12.2019, 10:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If youíre unable to follow the debate or points that have been made then thereís little I can say to help you Iím afraid.
This is both an Insult and evasion. HTH
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  #25203  
Old 12.12.2019, 10:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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what will today bring I wonder?

I got my postal vote sent in plenty of time, first time I've said no to a BJ.
I (intentionally) haven't voted, because no one stands for what I want. If ever there was lose-lose (+lose-lose-lose if you include all of them), this is it.
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  #25204  
Old 12.12.2019, 10:59
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I (intentionally) haven't voted, because no one stands for what I want. If ever there was lose-lose (+lose-lose-lose if you include all of them), this is it.

I had this discussion yesterday with a guy who, for the first time in twenty years, was choosing not to vote. He did say that consequently he had promised not to bitch about the result. I understand where he's coming from but... I personally cannot not vote.
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  #25205  
Old 12.12.2019, 11:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I had this discussion yesterday with a guy who, for the first time in twenty years, was choosing not to vote. He did say that consequently he had promised not to bitch about the result. I understand where he's coming from but... I personally cannot not vote.
Yes I also have that kind of moral dilemma: if im not taking part, what right do I have to moan about the result, but I expect it won't stop me.

What is frustrating about this election is parts of manifesto work, but parts are madness. Labour is good for tech tax, for higher NHS, but bad for things like nationalization and lower working weeks. Tories are good economics but not enough into public services and brexit. Libdem's as Ive said earlier have policies but not strong leadership to convey them.

It is looking to be the Tories just though as of last night. It really is an unknown though. the first two, newcastle and houghton, are going to be like the biggest announcements ever!
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  #25206  
Old 12.12.2019, 11:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I (intentionally) haven't voted, because no one stands for what I want. If ever there was lose-lose (+lose-lose-lose if you include all of them), this is it.
I have complete sympathy, it's just a matter of making an opinion on the 'least worst', but like RufusB I had to vote.
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  #25207  
Old 12.12.2019, 13:22
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Apparently the points that have been made elude a good part of the readership, my dear.

I don't think I like your tone in these debates, you replied in a similar way to a few other people here. When asked for more explanations you add nothing to the "point", you just resort to cheap put downs because Music Chick and a couple of others from your gang have no other arguments than resorting to cheap put downs and you follow their lead. It is not an indicative of higher intelligence.
I don't know who or what a Music Chick is. I understand at all what relevance it has to this discussion. My dear.

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How dare you be so rude to a respected member of this forum.
Look, I've gone through this in quite a bit of detail. I've explained that there is already currently progressive taxation in the UK and the reasons I believe it has worked and is working in reducing income inequality. I've explained how the Tories have increased the tax free allowance and the minimum wage which has benefited the lowest earner. This poster, like many others, keep returning to the simplistic idea that Tories = evil and Labour = righteous. There is little point in continuing with people with this mindset.

It's not only that, they clearly do not understand what Jeremy Corbyn is offering. It's pure socialism. Not, social democracy and not the Nordic Model. Nordic countries don't nationalise anything and everything. Nordic countries don't confiscate 10% of large businesses. Nordic countries don't control the broadband network. My explanations are clear, if people don't want to believe them then that's fine, but I'm not going to go back and answer points that have already been covered.
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  #25208  
Old 12.12.2019, 13:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I (intentionally) haven't voted, because no one stands for what I want. If ever there was lose-lose (+lose-lose-lose if you include all of them), this is it.
Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.

It took less than a year for Jeremy Corbyn to turn a once great party in to a safe space for brownshirts and antisemites. Don't think he wouldn't do the same with the rest of the country were he to win power. There are only two choices, and one is far worse than the other. Jeremy Corbyn has to be stopped!
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  #25209  
Old 12.12.2019, 13:29
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Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.
Why do you assume "apathy"? Mikers said he intentionally didn't vote and gave reasons for it.

*cough* I think you mean "flaws", too...

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It took less than a year for Jeremy Corbyn to turn a once great party in to a safe space for brownshirts and antisemites. Don't think he wouldn't do the same with the rest of the country were he to win power. There are only two choices, and one is far worse than the other. Jeremy Corbyn has to be stopped!
In your opinion.

You are free to vote for whomever you want to, even Boris Johnson, but the point of an election is that each person is also free to vote how they want to. You don't agree with voting for Jeremy Corbyn for your entirely personal opinions, which is fine - don't vote for him, you just have to expect and accept that not everyone shares your views or accept that people have different priorities.
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  #25210  
Old 12.12.2019, 13:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.

It took less than a year for Jeremy Corbyn to turn a once great party in to a safe space for brownshirts and antisemites. Don't think he wouldn't do the same with the rest of the country were he to win power. There are only two choices, and one is far worse than the other. Jeremy Corbyn has to be stopped!
In your opinion. And it's not apathy, it's a conscious decision.

Flaws.

You're right. One choice is by far the worst which is why the Tories need to go.
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  #25211  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.
We get it. You don't like socialist policies or the party currently advocating them. Not a lot of point in saying the same things over and over again though, is there?

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You don't agree with voting for Jeremy Corbyn for your entirely personal opinions, which is fine - don't vote for him, you just have to expect and accept that not everyone shares your views or accept that people have different priorities.
Quite so. It's why there's an election, after all. If everyone agreed with TC we could just hand over power to Boris without bothering.

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You're right. One choice is by far the worst which is why the Tories need to go.
In your opinion. Just like Tony, you have to accept that not everyone agrees, and try not to state your opinion as if it's fact.

It's much more difficult than that though, as evidenced here. On the one hand people are scared of what Labour might do if they get in, and they still support Brexit; on the other it's clear that the Tories will definitely continue trying to get Brexit through.

If only there were a viable alternative, but then that's been pretty much the story of British politics for the last fifty years...
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  #25212  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not a lot of point in saying the same things over and over again though, is there?
There is, when he talks about someone's "floors". That alone is worth the price of admission.
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  #25213  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We get it. You don't like socialist policies or the party currently advocating them. Not a lot of point in saying the same things over and over again though, is there?
When it comes to saying things over and over and over, TC has definitely not been the worst offender on this thread. We're at something like 1261 pages now and you could probably summarize all arguments brought up in as many words without leaving anything out.

Seeing TC hasn't been here that long, others are obviously far more guilty of endless repetition.

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Quite so. It's why there's an election, after all. If everyone agreed with TC we could just hand over power to Boris without bothering.
Again, that argument goes both ways.

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In your opinion. Just like Tony, you have to accept that not everyone agrees, and try not to state your opinion as if it's fact.
yes

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If only there were a viable alternative, but then that's been pretty much the story of British politics for the last fifty years...
To be an alternative, such a force would have to be different, and to be different it would have to offer a different solution. As in maybe something more compromising, something that reconciles the divergent opinions rather than opening the divide further.
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  #25214  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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TC hasn't been here that long
That's debatable.
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  #25215  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This poster, like many others, keep returning to the simplistic idea that Tories = evil and Labour = righteous. There is little point in continuing with people with this mindset.

It's not only that, they clearly do not understand what Jeremy Corbyn is offering. It's pure socialism. Not, social democracy and not the Nordic Model. Nordic countries don't nationalise anything and everything. Nordic countries don't confiscate 10% of large businesses. Nordic countries don't control the broadband network. My explanations are clear, if people don't want to believe them then that's fine, but I'm not going to go back and answer points that have already been covered.
No, my choice would be Libdems not Labour.


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Yes I also have that kind of moral dilemma: if im not taking part, what right do I have to moan about the result, but I expect it won't stop me.

What is frustrating about this election is parts of manifesto work, but parts are madness. Labour is good for tech tax, for higher NHS, but bad for things like nationalization and lower working weeks. Tories are good economics but not enough into public services and brexit. Libdem's as Ive said earlier have policies but not strong leadership to convey them.
Why do you think they don't have strong leadership?

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Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.

It took less than a year for Jeremy Corbyn to turn a once great party in to a safe space for brownshirts and antisemites. Don't think he wouldn't do the same with the rest of the country were he to win power. There are only two choices, and one is far worse than the other. Jeremy Corbyn has to be stopped!
See, that's exactly the thing some people disagree with.

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Why do you assume "apathy"? Mikers said he intentionally didn't vote and gave reasons for it.


In your opinion.

You are free to vote for whomever you want to, even Boris Johnson, but the point of an election is that each person is also free to vote how they want to. You don't agree with voting for Jeremy Corbyn for your entirely personal opinions, which is fine - don't vote for him, you just have to expect and accept that not everyone shares your views or accept that people have different priorities.
Exactly.
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  #25216  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's not only that, they clearly do not understand what Jeremy Corbyn is offering. It's pure socialism. Not, social democracy and not the Nordic Model. Nordic countries don't nationalise anything and everything. Nordic countries don't confiscate 10% of large businesses. Nordic countries don't control the broadband network. My explanations are clear, if people don't want to believe them then that's fine, but I'm not going to go back and answer points that have already been covered.
Is it?

Perhaps you don't realise (or don't want to realise) that most of the things Labour want to nationalise are ALREADY nationalised in the Nordic countries. Ditto Switzerland actually - trains, power (grid and local distribution) and post are all mostly nationalised or under local government control here. Comms here are also still highly controlled by Swisscom - 51% government owned.

Oh and by "Nordic countries don't confiscate 10% of large businesses" - I presume you're talking about tax. Have you ever checked out the tax rates in those countries?
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Old 12.12.2019, 14:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Whilst I understand the apathy, I believe we're duty bound to vote for Boris Johnson. For all his floors, he is not an antisemite, nor is he advocating socialism.
Someone with a record for lying that rivals Trump? Someone that runs scared of every serious interview? Someone that has such a history of personal corruption? No thanks.
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  #25218  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps you don't realise (or don't want to realise) that most of the things Labour want to nationalise are ALREADY nationalised in the Nordic countries. Ditto Switzerland actually - trains, power (grid and local distribution) and post are all mostly nationalised or under local government control here. Comms here are also still highly controlled by Swisscom - 51% government owned.
The big difference is that utilities and railways in the UK were pretty dismal when they were run by government and are still somewhat dismal today now that the private sector is in charge.

In Switzerland both the national and private railways are very neat and efficient. Ditto for telecomms etc.

So maybe it's a question of policy and not of ownership?
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  #25219  
Old 12.12.2019, 14:56
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In your opinion. Just like Tony, you have to accept that not everyone agrees, and try not to state your opinion as if it's fact.
Of course in my opinion. What else would it be? Or should I put IMO after everything just to make sure?

I'm not the one who needs educating in what is opinion and what is fact. IMO. But thanks for the censure.
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Old 12.12.2019, 15:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The big difference is that utilities and railways in the UK were pretty dismal when they were run by government and are still somewhat dismal today now that the private sector is in charge.

In Switzerland both the national and private railways are very neat and efficient. Ditto for telecomms etc.

So maybe it's a question of policy and not of ownership?
There is probably something to this, however I think the main issue is that for things essential to the proper functioning of the country (e.g. Trains), even when privatized, you cannot allow them to fail, so losses become socialized and profits get privatized - surely it is fairly clear to see why nationalization is a better approach than this - if you are always going to pay the downside but never see the benefit of the upside, then you're just throwing good money after bad.
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