The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	amogles
	The big difference is that utilities and railways in the UK were pretty dismal when they were run by government and are still somewhat dismal today now that the private sector is in charge. In Switzerland both the national and private railways are very neat and efficient. Ditto for telecomms etc. So maybe it's a question of policy and not of ownership?

Surely it's more of a case of the power of the trade unions in the U.K. compared with Switzerland?

SBB travel wouldn't be so neat and efficient if there were strikes every other day.

Irrespectively of whether U.K. railways get re-nationalised, ir stay as they are, there needs to be a lot more accountability.

Personally, I think they ought to be re-nationionalized. The only way private railways would really work is if, for example, there were ten separate train tracks and services running between London and Birmingham and the customers could chose which one to travel on. That would improve price and service.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	amogles
	The big difference is that utilities and railways in the UK were pretty dismal when they were run by government and are still somewhat dismal today now that the private sector is in charge. In Switzerland both the national and private railways are very neat and efficient. Ditto for telecomms etc. So maybe it's a question of policy and not of ownership?

Yes this is the key point. If you look at nationalized rail systems: Britain: crap. Switerland: Good.

Then there was privatization which has introduced competition but not got the service levels back in the UK.

So will going back to nationalized rail make it brilliant like switzerlands ? I dont think so. People in Switzerland believe in the country. They have a level of pride, of passion, of almost nationalism that makes doing things like running train services something they are proud of. You dont have that in Britain and putting socialism up the agenda and shoving money into it might fix some of it, but I really dont think it'll fix attitude of people wanting to do as little as they can for as much money as they can.

Funny thing is, I only think this will happen in transport and things like running councils which are just known for lazy people doing the minimum and never getting fired.

For the NHS I think if you put more capital into it, you will see results and people do their NHS jobs really for the passion of it, not just a salary.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Mikers
	So will going back to nationalized rail make it brilliant like switzerlands ? I dont think so. People in Switzerland believe in the country. They have a level of pride, of passion, of almost nationalism that makes doing things like running train services something they are proud of.

Not only or not necessarily in their country, Mikers. They have that level of pride in what they do, however "small" or "insignificant". As much as I know the Swiss these people take their role in life very seriously. Btw, the best way to socialise with the Swiss is through work. ;-)

[amogles]

	Quote:	Mikers
	So will going back to nationalized rail make it brilliant like switzerlands ? I dont think so. People in Switzerland believe in the country. They have a level of pride, of passion, of almost nationalism that makes doing things like running train services something they are proud of. You dont have that in Britain and putting socialism up the agenda and shoving money into it might fix some of it, but I really dont think it'll fix attitude of people wanting to do as little as they can for as much money as they can.

This. And public subsidy and investment in railways in Switzerland are on a pro capita level many times greater than in the UK. The railways didn't get as perfect as they are by themselves. And it's not just the money. Switzerland has a railway strategy. They have projects in the pipeline many years and even decades ahead. This requires a level of dedciation that goes far beyond just saying, let's nationalize and see if things turn out any better than last time we nationalized.

Squabbling about who gets to own the railways is totally barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Then there was privatization which has introduced competition but not got the service levels back in the UK.

Not really competition in the economic sense. Bidding for franchises and then running a crap service for a few years, racking in profit and finally getting the boot isn't really competition in the true sense of the word.

Hence my description of competition in the post above yours - which obviously is not achievable.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Surely it's more of a case of the power of the trade unions in the U.K. compared with Switzerland? SBB travel wouldn't be so neat and efficient if there were strikes every other day.

Switzerland has some pretty big trade unions too. They're just more responsible than their UK equivalents and understand that if they inflict damage on the railways they are inflicting damage on themselves. They prefer to resolve disputes through negotiation, and that peculiar Swiss concept that the British don't understand any more, compromise.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Irrespectively of whether U.K. railways get re-nationalised, ir stay as they are, there needs to be a lot more accountability.

I agree.

Furthermore, as i said above, there needs to be a long term development strategy rather than an ad hoc throwing of money at problems while seeking to do everything on the cheap.

I somehow struggle to see that happening.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Personally, I think they ought to be re-nationionalized. The only way private railways would really work is if, for example, there were ten separate train tracks and services running between London and Birmingham and the customers could chose which one to travel on. That would improve price and service.

We had a guy called Dr Beeching who effectively did away with parallel routes in the UK. It was a Tory government who supported that plan and a the Labour opposition of the day said that if they won the election they would immediately stop the plan's execution. Labour won the election, took one look at the financial figures, and told Dr Beeching to continue with his plan.

One positive example of a privatized railway is the Japanese one. Japanese Railways have a very clear and strict contract with the government telling them how the service should be operated and grown. And it works. But as i said, ownership is the red herring here. What Britain needs is a Swiss stlye commitment to the railways, and I am not seeing anyone proposing that right now, or indeed ever.

	Quote:	amogles
	Squabbling about who gets to own the railways is totally barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.

Disagree. As long as the whole system is fragmented you have zero chance of a decent long-term national strategy. And yes I know the UK never actually achieved this in the BR days - mainly due to the usual UK government penny pinching.

When comparing to Switzerland consider the cash the Swiss government invests in rail here.

BTW -I wasn't intending to start a debate on this - only wanted to point out that nationalising rail isn't any sort of ultra-left, radical policy internationally.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Disagree. As long as the whole system is fragmented you have zero chance of a decent long-term national strategy. And yes I know the UK never actually achieved this in the BR days - mainly due to the usual UK government penny pinching.

I'm not sure. In the Canton of Zürich for example, there are SBB trains, trains owned by the canton and / or local authorities, some even with some minority private ownership. There are trams. There are buses run by at least half a dozen different entities ranging from the post office to VBZ to lots of regional and local setups. Yet it all fits together seamlessly. No sign of fragmentation. That's because they all work together. And they all work together because they are all part of the same strategy, managed by people like the transport ministry and ZVV and backed up by different levels of government who are prepared to follow up their words with money.

	Quote:
	When comparing to Switzerland consider the cash the Swiss government invests in rail here.

yes

	Quote:
	BTW -I wasn't intending to start a debate on this - only wanted to point out that nationalising rail isn't any sort of ultra-left, radical policy internationally.

Merely nationalizing the railways will not fix any of these problems. I never claimed that doing so was, in itself, radical left. I'm just saying it's not really conductive to a better solution. To me it comes across as an overly simple solution to a complicated and multi facetted problem. Which in my view can be said of lots of Corbyn's policies.

Just as, indeed, privatizing them was also a one solution to fix any problem type of thinking by the John Major government.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	They prefer to resolve disputes through negotiation..

This. You forgot civil negotiation. That's what enables the compromise, me thinks.

The train biz is symbolic in our debate.

People are smart enough to dissociate themselves from the problems and while proud of what they do (as a team, really, since the individual does lay off the ego enough to forgo meaningless personal victories)..they strive for general progress even if it only shows in a decade or three.

	Quote:
	I somehow struggle to see that happening.

I agree. And safely hiding under the EU admin (or any other pseudo inclusive structure) I struggle to see that even more.

Pseudo inclusive structures come in many forms. Basically it translates into the oposite of transparent financing.

That's the point you made about throwing cash at temporary bandaids. That's just a political gesture.

I wrote many times in here that the freedom of an individual is defined by the mobility (infrastructure) that his society allows him to afford (not entitlement). The whole society functioning in a long term sustainable way gives people the pride here while they have the freedom to afford mobility as the see fit.

	Quote:
	]What Britain needs is a Swiss stlye commitment to the railways, and I am not seeing anyone proposing that right now, or indeed ever.

Swiss style commitment..loyalty, selflessness, low ego me thinks. Appartenance is the word we use here. Civility.

I don't really know what role a train has in this, though personally it improves my life incredibly. I should have acknowledged CFF in my "I would like to thank to.." parts, lol. Seriously.

	Quote:	amogles
	...I never claimed that doing so was, in itself, radical left...

I know.

But someone else did.

	Quote:	amogles
	I'm not sure. In the Canton of Zürich for example, there are SBB trains, trains owned by the canton and / or local authorities, some even with some minority private ownership. There are trams. There are buses run by at least half a dozen different entities ranging from the post office to VBZ to lots of regional and local setups. Yet it all fits together seamlessly. No sign of fragmentation. That's because they all work together. And they all work together because they are all part of the same strategy, managed by people like the transport ministry and ZVV and backed up by different levels of government who are prepared to follow up their words with money.

It works because there is an overriding authority, ZVV, that can deal with all these organisations more easily because they are all public.

The one place in the UK with decent transport (in my experience) is London where TFL does a similar job. Underground and Overground are publically owned, the busses admittedly not but also highly controlled and specified. One simple, joined-up ticketing system. Works less well in the regular rail which are all more privatised but as that mainly affects south of the river I'm less fussed about that

[Troublawesome]

This thread has become an endless sea of spam.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	This thread has become an endless sea of spam.

Reported as spam.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	This. You forgot civil negotiation. That's what enables the compromise, me thinks.

Are you the famous Music Chick? If so, are you able to tell me why you keep getting mentioned regarding Brexit?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Is it? Perhaps you don't realise (or don't want to realise) that most of the things Labour want to nationalise are ALREADY nationalised in the Nordic countries. Ditto Switzerland actually - trains, power (grid and local distribution) and post are all mostly nationalised or under local government control here. Comms here are also still highly controlled by Swisscom - 51% government owned. Oh and by "Nordic countries don't confiscate 10% of large businesses" - I presume you're talking about tax. Have you ever checked out the tax rates in those countries?

I'm not talking about tax, I'm talking about the Labour manifesto pledge to confiscate 10% of companies, without compensation, and hand it to employees. It's there in black and white on page 60 of their manifesto.

Power isn't nationalised in Nordic countries. There are state owned companies, but there is also a choice of supplier. The same goes for Rail. None have state owned broadband.

There's nothing wrong with with part or full state owned companies, as you've said, they work very well here. Nationalising public services on mass however to restrict the choice to the consumer is pure socialism.

And a word about British Rail, it's a common misconception that there was a golden age of rail transport when then company was state owned. This is a myth, it was always terrible. Look at the graph below, numbers plummeted after the railways were nationalised in 1948 because it was so terrible. The British rail system was created by private companies and the golden age of rail transport was around the turn of the last century.

Privitisation was so successful that now too many people are using the trains. What is worst about Jeremy Corbyn's transport policies is that the worst off don't even use the trains in the UK on a regular basis, so he is expecting shelf stackers and fruit pickers to fund wealthy commuters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_t..._1830-2015.png

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Are you the famous Music Chick? If so, are you able to tell me why you keep getting mentioned regarding Brexit?

Regarding you, actually....

And don't try to drag the discussion back where we didn't want to be in the first place. This is what you have tried to do the whole time.

Any other interesting ideas about why the Tories are better than the Labour?

[TonyClifton]

Why did you delete my post Roegner? Is it not acceptable to point out my objection to being discriminated against for being dyslexic?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Regarding you, actually.... And don't try to drag the discussion back where we didn't want to be in the first place. This is what you have tried to do the whole time. Any other interesting ideas about why the Tories are better than the Labour?

No I've said all I had to say on the matter. Antisemitism and socialism are the two and only reasons. If it wasn't for the antisemitism, I may have welcomed a dose Marxist misery on the UK to teach the middle class and student sneerers a lesson in what it really means. As it is I will be praying to God in Heaven to deliver a Conservative victory so that our Jewish friends can once again feel reassured and safeguarded.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Why did you delete my post Roegner? Is it not acceptable to point out my objection to being discriminated against for being dyslexic?

Why are Brexiteers always dyslexic on here?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	No I've said all I had to say on the matter. Antisemitism and socialism are the two and only reasons. If it wasn't for the antisemitism, I may have welcomed a dose Marxist misery on the UK to teach the middle class and student sneerers a lesson in what it really means. As it is I will be praying to God in Heaven to deliver a Conservative victory so that our Jewish friends can once again feel reassured and safeguarded.

Where do you think teachers, medical staff, police, judges, prosecutors and other categories belong to? Are they middle classes or just paupers. Because they might have a different opinion.