The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Mikers]

	Quote:	22 yards
	An MP's job is to implement the will of the people of his electorate. That's Blueangel's point. In many constituencies, Remain won overall. Are the representatives of those constituencies (MPs) to uphold the will of their voters by voting against Brexit (if indeed they are to be given a vote, and this is the crux of the Scottish threat to annul the referendum result)? No, he isn't. As explained above, MPs in the UK represent their own constituencies.

This is not an election though. It is a referendum. It is not first past the post. The regions are counted to sum up the numbers separately but the overall figure is the only one that counts. On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

[Stoker177]

	Quote:	Mikers
	This is not an election though. It is a referendum. It is not first past the post. The regions are counted to sum up the numbers separately but the overall figure is the only one that counts. On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

That is absolutely correct....top marks.

[porsch1909]

	Quote:	Mikers
	This is not an election though. It is a referendum. It is not first past the post. The regions are counted to sum up the numbers separately but the overall figure is the only one that counts. On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

The referendum isn't legally binding so no.

They probably should though.

[Stoker177]

	Quote:	vuachère
	I (and many others) am terribly sad about the Poland-Switzerland match yesterday. The teams scored a goal each during the first 90 minutes, didn't score any during the extra time, and eventually Poland won by scoring 5 via the penalty shootout (as opposed to Switzerland's 4). I insist on a rematch as (1) the margins are very narrow (just one missed out penalty shot!), (2) this is not the result I want, and (3) Xhaka wasn't aware of what was at stake and would have performed differently if he had complete information.

Excellent...I have copied this ( hope you don't mind) to post to my FB friends who are constantly whinging.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Mikers
	This is not an election though. It is a referendum. It is not first past the post. The regions are counted to sum up the numbers separately but the overall figure is the only one that counts. On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

Yes, it's a national vote (and actually, it IS first past the post -- there is no purer form than a simple binary contest like this), but there are two points: it's not legally binding (as I've said half a dozen times), which allows MPs to consider whether they want to represent their electorates or not. That's all.

I can well see a number of politicians in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland with an eye on a looming P45 voting against Brexit.

	Quote:	Swisstree
	It seems the EU will now allow UK time to settle down. A senior EU official said, “There is a very significant political crisis in the UK and expecting on Tuesday that there will be a formal kick-starting of the process is not realistic.

Funny how that is phrased. The EU has no choice until the UK is ready to invoke Article 50, and the political crisis is in the EU, not merely in the UK.

They even have people believing the EU = Europe. A country cannot leave Europe, and the EU is merely a chain of offices with office workers.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

Not so, in the UK the parliament is sovereign, not the people. Therefore there is no mechanism to force the parliament to comply with a referendum. You can fully expect the SNP will almost certainly vote against any exit legislation introduced in the coming months....

[Sbrinz]

I read the House of Parliament could forbid the Prime Minister to actuate clause 50. That would be an upset, and the MPs could then discuss whether to go ahead or not, with clause 50 in October.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Mikers
	I'm just amazed how unaccepting people are of a democratic outcome. You sound like someone running an African banana republic, not part of a functioning democracy.

Your functioning democracy has:
- An unelected head of state
- An unelected upper house
- A sovereign parliament
- No written constitution
- No constitutional court or similar function
- Referenda that cannot be binding on a sovereign parliament

The result is that PMs are primarily obliged to represent their constituents not the national interest.

[Stoker177]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Your functioning democracy has: - An unelected head of state So What? - An unelected upper house Agree, that's dodgy - A sovereign parliament Yep - No written constitution [I] So What?[/I] - No constitutional court or similar function And? - Referenda that cannot be binding on a sovereign parliament But will be.

And still the oldest parliament and the model for many around the world....not perfect, but not bad either.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Stoker177
	And still the oldest parliament and the model for many around the world....not perfect, but not bad either.

True, but in Ireland we made two important changes, ironically enough insisted upon by the British side during the treaty negotiations in 1922 - a written constitution and a sovereign people.

[marton]

	Quote:	Loz1983
	Who cares about the bloody poster?! This referendum wasn't won and lost on a poster.

Thank you for so politely avoiding the question.

The message I receive from your answer is that the end justifies the means; so it is OK to lie, cheat and give false information so long as at the end of the day we get the vote that we want.

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	This, and the fact that the normal decent thing in a democracy is that when you lose a vote is that you lick your wounds, try and learn from your mistakes, but above all concede defeat and live with the result. Cameron did the only honourable thing. A pity that others don't get that. Try and learn from the Swiss. Outside of the EF, have you heard many people banging on about minarets lately, or preventing the second Gotthard road tunnel, or the 12:1 initiative? Neither have I.

"Outside of the EF, have you heard many people banging on about minarets lately, or preventing the second Gotthard road tunnel, or the 12:1 initiative? Neither have I."

Maybe if the Swiss proposing these initiatives would have made so many bare faced lies there would have been a different reaction, or not?

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	This, and the fact that the normal decent thing in a democracy is that when you lose a vote is that you lick your wounds, try and learn from your mistakes, but above all concede defeat and live with the result. Cameron did the only honourable thing. A pity that others don't get that. Try and learn from the Swiss. Outside of the EF, have you heard many people banging on about minarets lately, or preventing the second Gotthard road tunnel, or the 12:1 initiative? Neither have I.

"the normal decent thing in a democracy" is that the political parties involved do not lie through their teeth; when they do then you can expect a reaction - not that such a reaction will achieve much here

[marton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	It doesn't matter. I can't say it enough times. If your mp can't face doing his job description which is to implement the will of the people then he should retire and have a by election. This whole mini argument is a pathetic waste of time. Doesn't matter if the country is going to walk off a cliff, it was a national referendum, not a local one and Leave won. For a national referendum he is now obliged to implement the will of the nation. Christ, is there anything that Remain won't try to bend the result?

An MP is responsible to implement the will of his constituents; not the will of the nation

Quote "MPs work in Parliament on behalf of all the people in their constituency"

Source

Implementing the result of national referendums is a Government responsibility not individual MPs.

[marton]

	Quote:	Mikers
	This is not an election though. It is a referendum. It is not first past the post. The regions are counted to sum up the numbers separately but the overall figure is the only one that counts. On this topic it is a national referendum so the mp must adhere to the national will of the people. If they wanted it locally, then it should have been set up differently.

Quote "MPs work in Parliament on behalf of all the people in their constituency"

Implementing the result of national referendums is a Government responsibility not individual MPs.

Inventing new responsibilities for MPs (e.g. the mp must adhere to the national will of the people) does not take us forward and is actually nonsense .

An MP works in Parliament on behalf of all the people in their constituency.
Where, for example, they are part of a minority party they are not obliged to follow "the national will of the people" who voted in a majority of another party.

[Castro]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Yes, it's a national vote (and actually, it IS first past the post -- there is no purer form than a simple binary contest like this)

And yet the Americans wouldn't have been mad enough to have had such a reckless contest. Amendments to the Constitution, especially those with entrenched clauses commonly require a supermajority (e.g. two thirds) support in a legislature.

[Mikers]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Not so, in the UK the parliament is sovereign, not the people. Therefore there is no mechanism to force the parliament to comply with a referendum. You can fully expect the SNP will almost certainly vote against any exit legislation introduced in the coming months....

I'm not saying it's legally binding Jim I agree it's down to the mp, I was responding to the earlier point by blueangel which said it was. I still firmly believe that if parliament went against the will of the people it would be catastrophic for the country.

[dodgyken]

With a shortfall in the EU coffers once the UK has left - I wonder whether the Germans will bring this back to the table

Sure it was voted down 5 years ago but the game has moved on - and if they want a United States of Europe it would be a good start

[Mikers]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Yes, it's a national vote (and actually, it IS first past the post -- there is no purer form than a simple binary contest like this), but there are two points: it's not legally binding (as I've said half a dozen times), which allows MPs to consider whether they want to represent their electorates or not. That's all. I can well see a number of politicians in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland with an eye on a looming P45 voting against Brexit.

It's not first past the post locally, which was the point raised.

More talk today of second referendum, Scots may vote against, mp's calling result into question. I really fear for democracy in the uk right now.