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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25421  
Old 14.12.2019, 21:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris should pass his deal first thing on Monday or Tuesday and then tell the EU to bring the date forward, no need to wait until Jan 31st.
They still have not a plan about what to do on the 1st of Feb, never mind moving it back.... the first thing Boris is going to have to do is explain how he misunderstood the WA and that yes border checks will be conducted in the Irish Sea and that Arlene (Foster DUP) may be waking up to find Dutch, Belgian, French or Irish war ships in Belfast Lough from time to time! This thing needs careful planning or there will be bombs in Dublin and London again and that is just one of the the issues that needs to be considered.
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  #25422  
Old 14.12.2019, 22:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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For those who wanted a second referendum - you just had it with a "Get Brexit Done!" vote.

Even toff remainer Heseltine admits it's all over:

https://news.sky.com/story/general-e...ctory-11886157
And it only took 3 and a half years, 1 referendum and 2 elections! Not to mention all the ridiculous court cases. This is the real tragedy, all that time wasted because so many people on the Remain side of the argument feel that entitled that they don't need to accept democracy.

We see it here too, already since the vote we've had the false equivalence of comparing antisemitism to Islamophobia or astonishingly, the rights of EU residents in the UK! We have been told that most people didn't vote for the Tories. We have repeatedly been told that facts are opinions. The refusal to face up to what's taken place, and the lack of self awareness is remarkable.

It would be easy to sit here and gloat, but truth be told, we should pity these people. If only they could learn that humility isn't a weakness, and with humility comes reflection. Perhaps then they may then one day see how they've gotten this so wrong. Nevertheless, the struggle is now over, Brexit IS happening, the union is preserved and we have won. Now we can finally look forward to a bold new future.
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Old 14.12.2019, 22:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This thread is getting too depressing!
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  #25424  
Old 14.12.2019, 22:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nevertheless, the struggle is now over, Brexit IS happening, the union is preserved and we have won. Now we can finally look forward to a bold new future.

Yeah, but there's no guarantee the union is preserved. Scottish farmers don't want to lose EU (aka Germany's money) grants. For instance.



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The bitter prospect of a no-deal Brexit has robbed many farmers of the sense of satisfaction that autumn typically brings.

As the summer drifts away, the evenings become shorter, the mornings that little bit fresher, and Scotland’s farming communities normally turn their attention to reaping the fruits of their labours.

It should be a positive time of year; of fresh starts, newly ploughed fields, winter feed sorted. Perhaps a time to give some thanks for another year of fruitful labour and lay down new plans for what’s ahead.

This is how farmers and their families have functioned since the first hand-held plough scratched away at the surface of the dry earth, bringing the soil’s nutrients to the surface, creating a furrow and scattering seeds.

Of course, down the centuries there have been many challenges to overcome along the way – war, disease, climate and financial. And now, courtesy of Brexit, comes another.

Indeed, the frightening spectre of a ‘no-deal Brexit’ come 31 October is the Hallowe’en nightmare that it’s feared could alter the shape of the sector forever. And the scale of the challenge facing today’s farmers is one which Aberdeen-based Hamish Lean, head of rural property and a specialist in rural law at leading legal firm Shepherd and Wedderburn, does not underestimate.

“Farmers can do their bit to increase efficiency and productivity in relation to their own business, but these macro-economic factors are completely outwith their control,” says Lean. “The industry is watching developments – or maybe lack of developments – with alarm.”

The installation of a new Prime Minister and a cabinet of mainly strong-willed Brexiteers has done little to suggest Britain won’t wake up on the first day of November isolated from the EU, with no firm deals to help keep business running as normal.

“The prospect of a ‘no-deal Brexit’ is worrying,” Lean adds. “Prior to the cabinet shake-up, Stephen Barclay, the minister in charge of exit negotiations couldn’t deny the warning from the National Farmers’ Union that a large percentage of the UK sheep stock would have to be slaughtered as a result of ‘no-deal’.”

“That’s not scaremongering,” he insists, pointing out that ‘no-deal’ would likely see export tariffs on British-reared lamb to Europe rising to a level that would leave Scottish producers in particular unable to compete on price on the continent.

“They would be priced out of their main market in respect of lamb and that would lead fairly quickly to a collapse in the Scottish sheep industry,” adds Lean. “I’m not sure that the government has properly grasped that.”

Currently, almost 40 per cent of the UK’s total lamb production is exported, with the market hitting its peak in October. Of the amount sent abroad, 96 per cent is traded in Europe – raising the prospect of the sector suddenly having to switch to World Trade Organisation terms and hefty tariffs.

But, of course, sheep farmers are just one part of an entire sector braced for Brexit. Beef farmers face similar export issues, while others which rely heavily on the free-flowing movement of labour to handle fruit crops or fish processing are also nervously scanning each day’s headlines.

According to a recent survey by the National Farmers’ Union of Scotland, just one in ten Scottish farmers felt positive about the future in a post-EU landscape.

Regardless of talk of compensation being on offer to farmers to help smooth the Brexit process – during his leadership campaign, Boris Johnson pledged an extra £25 million a year in subsidies for Scottish farmers post-Brexit as they have been “poorly treated” – Lean warns of a pressing need for farmers to explore new income streams now to help prop up their business.

“Compensation might address the immediate crisis but might not halt the very dramatic restricting of the whole industry,” he says. “Small farms across the UK and in Scotland, in particular, might be enormously reduced. It’s likely a number will go out of business.”

But while it is without doubt a serious situation, Lean, part of Shepherd and Wedderburn’s nationwide team of agriculture specialists, believes the remarkable resilience of the farming community and their inventiveness when

it comes to diversifying will see them through.

“We’ve already seen businesses diversifying their income streams. For example, one client is looking into a biomass scheme to provide a source of income away from the core income of the business,” he says.

“Hill sheep farmers are looking at planting trees. The Scottish Government has an ambitious project with regard to timber planting, there are special grants available and the market is buoyant.”

That could see demand increase for suitable land, giving some farmers a realistic option to sell.

“There will be an impact on land values, but productive, good quality farms will always have a market,” Lean adds. “And investment in agricultural land is still a fantastic way to hedge against capital taxes. Investing in farm land will allow the new owner, as rules currently stand, to qualify for agricultural property relief at 100 per cent. There are always people looking to acquire agricultural land for that reason. That will help keep some prices up but overall the value of land is likely to go down.”

Amid so much uncertainty, emotions can run high – particularly among farming families with members who may want to leave because the income is not sustainable, or in the event of land linked to a family for generations needing to be sold.

It’s where the guidance of Shepherd and Wedderburn’s agricultural and business law experts can be particularly useful.

“We can help with restructuring a business,” says Lean, who specialises in representing landlords and tenants in the Scottish Land Court. “A family farming partnership might decide to go their separate ways or there may be the realisation within a family that not everyone can get a living from the business.”

Business exit strategies, land sales and the appropriate legal structures for diversified activities are all expected to become a more frequent element of the legal firm’s activities as Brexit bites.

.................................................. ......

“It can be emotional for families,” says Lean, who is also a trustee of RSABI, Scotland’s leading agriculture charity, which provides support for those who find themselves in difficult circumstances.

“It can give rise to enormous tension within families. There’s often pressure on people who might be considering exiting because they feel that out of several generations they are in some way letting the family down –that carries its own stresses.”
https://www.scotsman.com/business/st...exit-1-5007486
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  #25425  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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  #25426  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yeah, but there's no guarantee the union is preserved. Scottish farmers don't want to lose EU (aka Germany's money) grants. For instance.





https://www.scotsman.com/business/st...exit-1-5007486
Scotland will leave the EU with the rest of us at the end of January. This means that should they ever wish to rejoin the EU they will need to accept the Euro. They also currently would not be let in unless they addressed their huge deficit. The argument for rejoining over Brexit is dead. The union is preserved for a generation.

Eventually the noise for a second referendum will die down and Scots will start to scrutinise the SNP more closely. Then they’ll realise what a terrible job they’re doing of running Scotland!
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  #25427  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I was talking about all EU citizens - links provided. And I think Brussels will try to negotiate what's best for all. That's the wonderful thing of being part of the EU, you know. But thanks for making it personal? It's not.
(they are not the only ones who got or get money "from Germany", so that is neither here nor there)....I think in these times is more important than ever that EU will have an only one and stronger voice. And I think they will.
Yes, and it will be the voice of German interests.

Or why else are you so worried that people from your country cannot come to work in the UK? Maybe because to the guys in Brussels they are not important and nobody there is prepared to go into the breach for them? Other people's interests are more important.

It's time to wake up and smell the cheese.

You've been cheated badly and you don't even see it.

Let's have this conversation again in a couple of year's time and see how things stand.
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  #25428  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Scotland will leave the EU with the rest of us at the end of January. This means that should they ever wish to rejoin the EU they will need to accept the Euro. They also currently would not be let in unless they addressed their huge deficit. The argument for rejoining over Brexit is dead. The union is preserved for a generation.

Eventually the noise for a second referendum will die down and Scots will start to scrutinise the SNP more closely. Then they’ll realise what a terrible job they’re doing of running Scotland!
You are conveniently ignoring N. Ireland who seem to be somehow staying in the EU?
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  #25429  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, and it will be the voice of German interests.

Or why else are you so worried that people from your country cannot come to work in the UK? Maybe because to the guys in Brussels they are not important and nobody there is prepared to go into the breach for them?

It's time to wake up and smell the cheese.

You've been cheated badly and you don't even see it.
What? lol
Why do you think I'm worried? It doesn't make any sense. It was a reply to a different argument. It's about the EU immigrants who are already there and worry they may not be able to remain in the UK. Maybe you should bother reading not only my posts, but also the posts they replied to, before answering.
I thought we can talk about principles but I'm obviously wrong. We really have to make it personal. It's about all EU citizens' rights here and not only a few countries. All of them worry about post-Brexit, post-BJ winning.

Seriously, are you going to continue replying me for points I didn't make? Wow.
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Old 14.12.2019, 23:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Scotland will leave the EU with the rest of us at the end of January. This means that should they ever wish to rejoin the EU they will need to accept the Euro. They also currently would not be let in unless they addressed their huge deficit. The argument for rejoining over Brexit is dead. The union is preserved for a generation.

Eventually the noise for a second referendum will die down and Scots will start to scrutinise the SNP more closely. Then they’ll realise what a terrible job they’re doing of running Scotland!
One thing that the SNP is not explaining very well is that if Brexit is a bad thing because all those bonds and connections that have grown over the last decades are dissolved, how then can dissolving all those bonds that have grown over centuries be a good thing? If a hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland is a bad thing, how can a hard border between Scotland and England be a good thing? If queues of lorries in Dover are a bad thing, why are queues of lorries in Berwick a good thing? Scotland probably does more trade with England than with any other country. Do they want to sacrifice that? What about all the Scots who seek employment in England?

Scottish independence may be a nice romantic notion, and I can see where they are coming from. But I'd like to see the SNP explain how all the things they were opposing until now will suddenly be good for Scotland.
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Old 14.12.2019, 23:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What? lol
Why do you think I'm worried? It doesn't make any sense. It was a reply to a different argument. It's about the EU immigrants who are already there and worry they may not be able to remain in the UK. Maybe you should bother reading not only my posts, but also the posts they replied to, before answering.
I thought we can talk about principles but I'm obviously wrong. We really have to make it personal. It's about all EU citizens' rights here and not only a few countries. All of them worry about post-Brexit, post-BJ winning.

Seriously, are you going to continue replying me for points I didn't make? Wow.
My point still stands, if your EU is so good, why do you doubt that they will negotiate a perfect solution?

As for getting personal, maybe you should look at your own posts a little more introspectively.
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  #25432  
Old 14.12.2019, 23:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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My point still stands, if your EU is so good, why do you doubt that they will negotiate a perfect solution?

As for getting personal, maybe you should look at your own posts a little more introspectively.
Riiight.

Who said I doubt anything? They'll negotiate. It's one of their obligations/rights*. To which result, who can tell? BJ seems to be less inclined to negotiate...

* EU members can't just negotiate bilateral agreements. I think it's pretty fair.

You made me curious. What about you? Aren't you worried you'll not have the same rights within EU? Or even Switzerland? Pray tell. Because I'm definitely not worried for the time being.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.12.2019 at 00:05.
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  #25433  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Hopefully the pound will get stronger now vs CHF 1.4 is coming!
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  #25434  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

After the finalization of Brexit UK passport holders in CH, do you feel that your future in the country is in jeopardy?
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  #25435  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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After the finalization of Brexit UK passport holders in CH, do you feel that your future in the country is in jeopardy?
Good question.

There are more and more British citizens applying for a Swiss pass so that might partially answer your question.
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  #25436  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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One thing that the SNP is not explaining very well is that if Brexit is a bad thing because all those bonds and connections that have grown over the last decades are dissolved, how then can dissolving all those bonds that have grown over centuries be a good thing? If a hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland is a bad thing, how can a hard border between Scotland and England be a good thing?.

That is an easy one to answer. People residing in RoI and NI are from the same nation (Irish). Scottish and English are different nations.
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Old 15.12.2019, 00:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good question.

There are more and more British citizens applying for a Swiss pass so that might partially answer your question.

I think it takes years to be eligible for one plus you need to speak the local languages well.


In any case it will be interesting to see how many people will get affected by this in CH.
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  #25438  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Who said I doubt anything? They'll negotiate. It's one of their obligations/rights*. To which result, who can tell? BJ seems to be less inclined to negotiate...
So far it has been the EU trying to dictate terms, and they are not terms that are in the best interests of all EU countries. But as I said. Let's have this conversation again in 5 or 10 years.

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* EU members can't just negotiate bilateral agreements. I think it's pretty fair.
Not true. They can negotiate what they want. There are certain topics they cannot sign deals over.

Secondly, they don't need to negotiate. They just need to tell Brussels what they want. Right now all they want is for Merkel to have it her way. Don't want to upset the lady with the cheque book. But as I said before. Let's discuss again in 5 or 10 years time when it will be clear who the winners and losers have been.

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You made me curious. What about you? Aren't you worried you'll not have the same rights within EU? Or even Switzerland? Pray tell. Because I'm definitely not worried for the time being.
I'm not worried either. If you've been following the news the deal between UK and CH is already in the making.
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  #25439  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I'm not worried either. If you've been following the news the deal between UK and CH is already in the making.
But for good measure you also applied for the Swiss pass?
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  #25440  
Old 15.12.2019, 00:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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...... I'm not worried either. If you've been following the news the deal between UK and CH is already in the making.
In the making - Switzerland started with it's "mind the gap" procedures 19.10.2016.
Talking about Swiss politics being slow . GB is still not out yet Switzerland has it sorted.

Here you go, who's interested
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