The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Castro
	The Churchill in me will never surrender, especially given a referendum and election campaign based on lies, smear and disinformation. This wasn't a victory of ideas, it was a wholesale conjob. Hopefully Labour can rebuild with a unity candidate and finally start holding these bloody Tories to account. We may have lost the Brexit argument, but no way will they turn my country into a Singapore-on-Thames. On an unrelated note, I am so glad to see our Scouse cousins hold firm. The red wall may have fallen, but Merseyside bucked the trend by retaining all 14 of their Labour MPs as distrust of the conservatives runs deep and nobody reads The Sun

I wanted to see what has provoked the shitstorm in your direction and read it again. I think you could have chosen a different example to illustrate your resilience and you didn't really think it through, but all in all, what a good and decent post.
It's been taken to the loo by some people here, but it was to be expected.

So when will you post again on this thread? Not too soon, huh? I thought so.

[Mikers]

So with the dust settling and the fallout beginning, tories are the tories, like them or loathe them, but im getting really annoyed at Jeremy Corbyn. Why on earth can he not accept responsibility for defeat in a graceful manner, see that the people didnt buy his vision and then start afresh from there ?

So far its been right wing media, brexit, lies, personal attacks, no anti-semitism, basically *anything* other than say "we got it wrong".

There is no shame in losing, you learn from it.

I know he has said "I take responsibility" for that in a sulking voice on sunday but every single line of the "apology" is but, but, but, but, but...

He said he won the argument with his manifesto but failed to turn it into a voter swing. In that sentence alone he demonstrates he didnt win the argument. Free broadband for all, 4 day weeks, in and out of brext, absolute tosh.

Anyway he'll be gone soon and i hope the new one picks up the good bits of his manifesto - of which there were many clouded in with loads of fairytail stuff - and get back mainstream support.

Who do you want to succeed him ?

I'd like to see Angela Raynor, Jess Philips but ideally Yvette Cooper.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Anyway he'll be gone soon and i hope the new one picks up the good bits of his manifesto - of which there were many clouded in with loads of fairytail stuff - and get back mainstream support. Who do you want to succeed him ?

Diane Abbot would be my preferred candidate, give a woman a chance, Labour have never had a woman when the Conservatives have had 2. Learn from your opponents.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Diane Abbot would be my preferred candidate, give a woman a chance, Labour have never had a woman when the Conservatives have had 2. Learn from your opponents.

I'm sure Maggie and Theresa would be thrilled to know that the men "gave them a chance".

OMG - I'm HOOTING!

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I'm sure Maggie and Theresa would be thrilled to know that the men "gave them a chance". OMG - I'm HOOTING!

How did Diane get into the Shadow Cabinet? Her intellect or was she given a chance?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	How did Diane get into the Shadow Cabinet? Her intellect or was she given a chance?

Well, given that two posts ago you said that Labour "hadn't given any woman a chance", I'm going to assume you mean she got there on merit?

[Aeneas]

	Quote:	Mikers
	So far its been right wing media, brexit, lies, personal attacks, no anti-semitism, basically *anything* other than say "we got it wrong".

Crobyn's line appears to have been that he lost because they were insufficiently pro-Brexit and they insufficiently pro-Brexit because of strong pro-Remain elements in the shadow cabinate. He rejects that it had anything to do with his more radical or 'woke' policies.

Give both the SNP and LD saw an increase in their share of the vote (even the latter, although it did not translate into seats), despite also being insufficiently pro-Brexit, I suspect the general public was probably left unsold on more than simply their Brexit stance.

	Quote:
	Well, given that two posts ago you said that Labour "hadn't given any woman a chance", I'm going to assume you mean she got there on merit?

I'm more inclined to believe that May and Thacher got where they got on merit, on the basis that the Conservatives don't feel the need to virtue signal how a majority of their chosen cabinate are women.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	A 50+ year old speech tells you absolutely nothing about how someone would react about a situation today.

I've no idea what he would think if he was alive today. I never wrote that I did.

If you look carefully at my post - I used the past tense "wanted" rather than the present "wants".

The English language is quite useful to convey this kind of information but of course doesn't take into account the ability of the reader.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You cannot speak for dead people.

No, we leave that to priests at funerals in a church, and mediums at a table in a dimly lit room.

	Quote:	Aeneas
	I'm more inclined to believe that May and Thatcher got where they got on merit, on the basis that the Conservatives don't feel the need to virtue signal how a majority of their chosen cabinet are women.

I'm also sure that May and Thatcher got there on merit, too. FMF seems to think they were just "given a chance" to do the job. Ironically, that seems to be why BoJo is in his role but perhaps that's another story. He was a shit foreign secretary so let's try him out as the PM.

Not sure I agree that the women so far in Labour are the subject of "virtue signalling". A wodge of those women seem to be the best for the position they are in. Diane Abbott, regardless of her qualifications and experience, is now a poisoned chalice as far as hay-making from the media goes.

The rest, however, will hopefully make the necessary changes from within. Or until the tabloids decide to ruin their reputations in some way.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I'm also sure that May and Thatcher got there on merit, too. FMF seems to think they were just "given a chance" to do the job. Ironically, that seems to be why BoJo is in his role but perhaps that's another story. He was a shit foreign secretary so let's try him out as the PM. .

Ted heath thought he would retain his leadership, it was only when Mrs Thatcher put herself forward.... Ted Heath withdrew from the second ballot giving Mrs Thatcher a chance.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Diane Abbot would be my preferred candidate, give a woman a chance, Labour have never had a woman when the Conservatives have had 2. Learn from your opponents.

A chance? FFS. I get the impression you delight in being contrary but this is ridiculous even by your standards.


Jess Phillips would be my choice.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Mikers
	Who do you want to succeed him ? I'd like to see Angela Raynor, Jess Philips but ideally Yvette Cooper.

I sincerely wish he would leave office immediately because the next 6 weeks are crucial, but no! He'll be spending it navel gazing in 'reflection'. His vanity infuriates me no end. He should have gone years ago.

I was reading yesterday that McDonnell's top picks would be Rebecca Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner. Personally, I wouldn't touch either of them with a barge pole, particularly Long-Bailey who I wouldn't even have as a manager let alone a party leader. Rayner would be fine as a minister with a narrow remit that she can totally run, but I think she's a good few years from having the maturity to build bridges cross party.

I'm not sold on Keir Starmer. Keep trying to like him and get under the skin of the man, but nah. The Ian Tomlinson case still clouds my opinion of him.

My home town MP, Lisa Nandy, is also being touted by some, and whilst she's a lovely woman who cares passionately about people, I don't think she's reached the leadership level of maturity just yet. She got an incredible amount of flak for speaking out against Corbyn in 2016 in an interview alongside Owen Smith, who went on to challenge Corbyn in a leadership contest, however, everyone I know personally who was critical of her (ranting on about deselection, etc) has done a 180 after meeting her. In Wigan, she's very visible and approachable, so people do have the opportunity to meet and speak with her. She's an old fashioned jobbing MP and I believe she'd be a fantastic minister (again).

If you want a proper little firebrand with vast intelligence and experience, go for Angela Eagle.

My top pick would have been Tom Watson, but in his notable absence, Yvette Cooper or Jess Phillips and I would have brought Owen Smith back into a shadow cabinet position, but along with Watson, he stood down.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-wales...reaks-my-heart

	Quote:	Tom1234
	Marton's cleared that one up. There's no smoke without fire. Why do you think the banana story came into being? In 2008, an EU that regulated the shape of fruit (but not bananas specifically) was scrapped when it was discovered that a fifth of European fruit was being thrown away as it didn't meet the criteria. It's all here on the EU website. (IP/08/1964) That the law was passed in the first place was pretty disgusting. So Jim Lad, who's writing bollocks now? I rather think it's you.

There is an EU law that categorizes the shape of bananas, but it certainly does not regulate the shape of them - you can still sell and eat any shaped banana you want, it will just be labelled class 1, 2 etc.

When Boris (et al) say that the EU dictates you can't eat / buy bendy bananas and you swallow it wholesale and regurgitate it all over these pages, then yes, you're going to get pulled up on the nonsense.

Seriously, 2 mins on Google will tell you all you need to know about this.

	Quote:
	When Boris (et al) say that the EU dictates you can't eat / buy bendy bananas and you swallow it wholesale and regurgitate it all over these pages, then yes, you're going to get pulled up on the nonsense.

Wasn't that all part of his bullshit articles in the Daily Telegraph, along with a load of other cobblers about the EU back when he was a bored correspondent cooking up fictitious rules and regs, as well as deliberately misinterpreting others? Bans on prawn-cocktail crisps and extra sucky vacuum cleaners?

Back in the day when fake news was riotously funny.

[Tom1234]

	Quote:
	There is an EU law that categorizes the shape of bananas, but it certainly does not regulate the shape of them - you can still sell and eat any shaped banana you want, it will just be labelled class 1, 2 etc. When Boris (et al) say that the EU dictates you can't eat / buy bendy bananas and you swallow it wholesale and regurgitate it all over these pages, then yes, you're going to get pulled up on the nonsense. Seriously, 2 mins on Google will tell you all you need to know about this.

If you had spend 30 seconds bothering to read my post you would realise that the banana farce, which was a joke, came about as the result of a real EU law (which they got rid off) which meant that 1/5 of fruit in the EU was destroyed.

Seriously.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	If you had spend 30 seconds bothering to read my post you would realise that the banana farce, which was a joke, came about as the result of a real EU law (which they got rid off) which meant that 1/5 of fruit in the EU was destroyed. Seriously.

Really weak cop out, that. Stand by what you write (Churchill didn't want straight bananas) with a bit of intellectual honesty.

I'm sure if you didn't mean it, you'd have said Churchill didn't want a destruction of 20% of EU fruit - you are generally a very fastidious man.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	When Boris (et al) say that the EU dictates you can't eat / buy bendy bananas and you swallow it wholesale and regurgitate it all over these pages, then yes, you're going to get pulled up on the nonsense.

It's a type of brainwashing and misinformation. You could also make a case for bananas, busses and bikes being the PM's catchphrases in a kind of "don't let facts get in the way of a good story" way.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...le-explanation

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ong-after-cla/

[Tom1234]

	Quote:
	Really weak cop out, that. Stand by what you write (Churchill didn't want straight bananas) with a bit of intellectual honesty. I'm sure if you didn't mean it, you'd have said Churchill didn't want a destruction of 20% of EU fruit - you are generally a very fastidious man.

WTF? Seriously? You've lost me. I'll leave you to it.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I sincerely wish he would leave office immediately because the next 6 weeks are crucial, but no! He'll be spending it navel gazing in 'reflection'. His vanity infuriates me no end. He should have gone years ago.

I remember you were very critical of him on other threads and it looks like you were right all along.. I think his main issues were some of his views and not really the alleged anti-semitism...he's a bit too left-leaning for the UK IMHO.

	Quote:	Tom1234
	WTF? Seriously? You've lost me. I'll leave you to it.

Summary: Stop propagating nonsense and we're cool.