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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25521  
Old 17.12.2019, 13:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Anyone for the pub?
Bit early for the pub luv

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That people voted Conservative to punish Labour for being antisemitic is easily one of the most ridiculous things ever written in a thread full of ridiculous posts.
Some people did and that's an inescapable fact no matter how small that number was. That's by the by now.

Sterling has lost all the value it accumulated in the run up to the election thanks to the PM's proclamation that he's going to enshrine the Dec 2020 trade deal deadline in law, which has the effect of massively increasing the prospect of a no deal scenario again. I can't help wondering who is holding whose heels to the fire.
  #25522  
Old 17.12.2019, 13:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You don't need a crystal ball just to be someone with some common sense to work it out. It's been obvious for months if not years. I know you believe that the little people don't know what they are voting for BIG mistake.

17.4 million people voted for something to happen, MPs ignored this vote, they paid the price & now we have a government that will carry out the wishes of those 17.4 million.
Just picking up on this for a sec.

17.4 million people indicated they would like to leave the EU. MPs didn't ignore the referendum (where have you been for the past 3.5 years??), the problem is that they can't agree how to execute the result of the referendum. How can they know that when there was no delineation of how the UK leaves and under what conditions?

Sorry that this seems to be going round and round in circles but it seems there is still an element that doesn't get that "no deal" wasn't an option on the referendum, in the same way that "we'll negotiate a deal like Norway / Canada / Switzerland" wasn't, nor was "Leave the EU but let my EU wife/husband/kids stay here" or "Leave the EU but let me go and work in Italy or Sweden or Portugal" or "Leave the EU but keep all the frictionless trading".

You might have a different vision of "Leaving the EU" than any of the other 17-odd million Leave voters, who may all also have different visions from each other. THAT is what is causing the issues in parliament.

Saying they are "ignoring" it is just wrong.
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  #25523  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Only when I visit OH in Switzerland.
Write a proper haiku on that.

I think I'll stick to that thread.
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  #25524  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That people voted Conservative to punish Labour for being antisemitic is easily one of the most ridiculous things ever written in a thread full of ridiculous posts.
I thought it was because they wanted those super blue French made passports....
  #25525  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just picking up on this for a sec.

17.4 million people indicated they would like to leave the EU. MPs didn't ignore the referendum (where have you been for the past 3.5 years??), the problem is that they can't agree how to execute the result of the referendum. How can they know that when there was no delineation of how the UK leaves and under what conditions?

Sorry that this seems to be going round and round in circles but it seems there is still an element that doesn't get that "no deal" wasn't an option on the referendum, in the same way that "we'll negotiate a deal like Norway / Canada / Switzerland" wasn't, nor was "Leave the EU but let my EU wife/husband/kids stay here" or "Leave the EU but let me go and work in Italy or Sweden or Portugal" or "Leave the EU but keep all the frictionless trading".

You might have a different vision of "Leaving the EU" than any of the other 17-odd million Leave voters, who may all also have different visions from each other. THAT is what is causing the issues in parliament.

Saying they are "ignoring" it is just wrong.
I don't agree, FMF is right here and its the scientific dismantling of the argument that people still seem not to realize that has caused all this.

From what I can tell people voted to leave the EU given the question "Do you want to leave the EU ?" which is what politicians asked. Under the rules of the game that were set, the majority would win. a majority voted leave.

In the next three years, thousands upon thousands of reasons were given to hold up the process from parliamentary soverignty, lies on bus, no-deal not explained, leavers didnt understand their vote, only advisory, on and on and on it went.

At the same time, as Prime ministers tried to vote through a leave deal MP's rejected it, for lots of different reasons "not good enough", "worse than what we have now", "risk of cliff edge", whatever whatever.

Then some people talked about a Final Say, a second referendum, illegal that 16 years olds werent allowed.

that 3 years had passed and old people had died.

Then Boris Johnson said he would get rid of the irish backstop. impossible said the EU and remainers. then they did.

Then we had an election, where Boris Johnson said "vote for me, and we'll leave, like you voted for". And people said he was a liar, an adulterer, he couldnt deliver what he was promising, he beat up his girlfriend said a leftie who heard shouting from his room so called the police, he doesnt know who his kids are said the guardian, he wont appear on an interview with andrew neil shrieked the Independent.

All of them, absolutely determined that all this moral fibre bashing, technical legal loophole stuff would see it reversed.

And in the end ? The bloke down the pub from the North just thought back to his vote, where he'd asked to leave the EU. He didnt care that BJ has a few extra kids, sleeps around, isnt off the same stunning moral fibre that high ground politicians seemed to be claiming (while fiddling their expenses) so they voted for him in droves.

And even now, a few days after the election, there are still claims that mathematically "he doesnt have a majority to leave" and other absolutely absurd statements that make it EVEN MORE CERTAIN that people will vote to leave the EU or a party saying they will do so until it is actually implemented.

Do I want to leave the EU ? no.
is it a mistake ? yes, hugely
are MP's liars ? yes
Does the democratic result of 2016 have to be respected ? Yes.

and then we can work on getting it reversed and rejoining.

By the way, I know this post will now be deconstructed into several parts pointing out that technically im wrong here and can i provide evidence for this and what about this percentage for that, but this just proves my point even further: its going to happen and talking about the good friday agreement, american trade deal blockers, no deal cliff edge legal loopholes isnt going to make a blind bit of difference. sorry.
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  #25526  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

But, from all your detailed info above, presumably you don't agree with FMF that MPs have "ignored the vote"?

I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong or whether the reasons are just or nefarious but the fact is that the process itself has been vastly underestimated and over-simplified, and was peddled to the electorate as such.

Of course the voters aren't thick but, by the same token, they didn't have the full picture or implications of implementing the withdrawal and all its various stages and clauses, and whatever bureaucracy is just simply "there" to be dealt with.

Anyone who said at the time that "it's not just a simple case of walking out of the EU and shutting the door, end of story" was shouted down as scare-mongering or "remoaning" or whatever bullshit tabloid clickbait label fitted at the time.

The fact that 3.5 years later it's still an open wound with no resolution in sight (I'm not particularly confident that BoJo will manage it by end of Jan, to be honest) is testament to the under-estimation of the whole thing.
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  #25527  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But, from all your detailed info above, presumably you don't agree with FMF that MPs have "ignored the vote"?

I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong or whether the reasons are just or nefarious but the fact is that the process itself has been vastly underestimated and over-simplified, and was peddled to the electorate as such.

Of course the voters aren't thick but, by the same token, they didn't have the full picture or implications of implementing the withdrawal and all its various stages and clauses, and whatever bureaucracy is just simply "there" to be dealt with.

Anyone who said at the time that "it's not just a simple case of walking out of the EU and shutting the door, end of story" was shouted down as scare-mongering or "remoaning" or whatever bullshit tabloid clickbait label fitted at the time.

The fact that, 3.5 years later it's still an open wound with no resolution in sight (I'm not particularly confident that BoJo will manage it by end of Jan, to be honest) is testament to the under-estimation of the whole thing.
I agree with all of this except I agree with FMF's statement - I do believe MP's have tried to stop this because they genuinely thought it was the best thing for the country. If you look at dominic grieve he's an intelligent patriotic person and I completely get what he was trying to do. It's cameron that should be shot for setting it up, but the result is the result, im afraid you cannot - in a modern functioning democracy - try and reverse the result of a nationwide poll and expect to get away with it.
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  #25528  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I agree with all of this except I agree with FMF's statement - I do believe MP's have tried to stop this because they genuinely thought it was the best thing for the country. If you look at dominic grieve he's an intelligent patriotic person and I completely get what he was trying to do. It's cameron that should be shot for setting it up, but the result is the result, im afraid you cannot - in a modern functioning democracy - try and reverse the result of a nationwide poll and expect to get away with it.
I don't think anyone (apart from the LibDems) was actively trying to stop Brexit. The voting in parliament has been mainly either to prevent a no deal which, ok, most people agree would be crap for the UK and I think here those MPs trying to prevent that are correct, or they've been objecting to the details of the deals put before them. But none of that is stopping Brexit, it's more damage limitation and attempting to increase the possibilities of negotiation to depart under the best conditions.
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  #25529  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

And once Brexit is done, it will be time for us to dump the bilaterals, especially FMOP!

Tom
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  #25530  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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... but the result is the result, im afraid you cannot - in a modern functioning democracy - try and reverse the result of a nationwide poll and expect to get away with it.
Unless you're Simon Cowell
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  #25531  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
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  #25532  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And once Brexit is done, it will be time for us to dump the bilaterals, especially FMOP!

Tom
Us who?
  #25533  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't think anyone (apart from the LibDems) was actively trying to stop Brexit. The voting in parliament has been mainly either to prevent a no deal which, ok, most people agree would be crap for the UK and I think here those MPs trying to prevent that are correct, or they've been objecting to the details of the deals put before them. But none of that is stopping Brexit, it's more damage limitation and attempting to increase the possibilities of negotiation to depart under the best conditions.
A lot of the delays and shenanigans were down to the impact of the Ref result on UK constitutional law. I've conversed with at least one constitutional law expert (mainly the Brummie one who claims to bear a passing resemblance to Wednesday Addams ) and he can't wait for the day when he can go back to being a boring fart of a geek. None of them expected to be catapulted into the spotlight, or to take the immense amount of abuse that they've endured over the last few years, simply for doing the job that nobody paid a blind bit of notice to pre-2016.

Personally, when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving the EU, I knew much of that stuff beforehand through work, etc, particularly regarding employment legislation and supply chains. The real learning curve for me has been the impact in law. I never expected to be gripped by day after day of High Court and Supreme Court proceedings with my brother on speed dial to explain the bits that I didn't understand. UK law is where the earthquake has happened. Parliament is just the aftershock. UK law is where the battleground will continue to be for now, because we have a PM with a degree in Classics intent on riding roughshod over UK law and the constitution.
  #25534  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A lot of the delays and shenanigans were down to the impact of the Ref result on UK constitutional law. I've conversed with at least one constitutional law expert (mainly the Brummie one who claims to bear a passing resemblance to Wednesday Addams ) and he can't wait for the day when he can go back to being a boring fart of a geek. None of them expected to be catapulted into the spotlight, or to take the immense amount of abuse that they've endured over the last few years, simply for doing the job that nobody paid a blind bit of notice to pre-2016.

Personally, when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving the EU, I knew much of that stuff beforehand through work, etc, particularly regarding employment legislation and supply chains. The real learning curve for me has been the impact in law. I never expected to be gripped by day after day of High Court and Supreme Court proceedings with my brother on speed dial to explain the bits that I didn't understand. UK law is where the earthquake has happened. Parliament is just the aftershock. UK law is where the battleground will continue to be for now, because we have a PM with a degree in Classics intent on riding roughshod over UK law and the constitution.
Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit. Remainers should have thought of that before the likes of Jo Maugham and Gina Miller went through their little pantomime in the courts. I mean Parliament is sovereign, right? We've been getting that rammed down our necks for the past 3 and half years, haven't we?

The same goes for John Bercow for tearing up centuries of convention. We were all there warning of the implications of going down this road! Such was the fevor to stop Brexit that no one paid attention. Now providence has come to teach the Remainers a lesson in humility.
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Old 17.12.2019, 15:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit. Remainers should have thought of that before the likes of Jo Maugham and Gina Miller went through their little pantomime in the courts. I mean Parliament is sovereign, right? We've been getting that rammed down our necks for the past 3 and half years, haven't we?

The same goes for John Bercow for tearing up centuries of convention. We were all there warning of the implications of going down this road! Such was the fevor to stop Brexit that no one paid attention. Now providence has come to teach the Remainers a lesson in humility.
But, but, but... you said Brexit wasn't good. "As big a threat as having a Corbyn government", as I recall. Given how much you venom you hold for Corbyn, that puts Brexit on a pretty low-in-the-gutter footing too, right?

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Likely more of the same? Certainly nothing that is as bad as what would happen under Jeremy Corbyn. The pound already dropped last night on news of the polls tightening. He is seen as bigger threat to the economy than Brexit.
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  #25536  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
this I agree with, Boris has played everyone who doubted him for fools, no one in his party will dare to screw with him now
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  #25537  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit.
Not true!

Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
  #25538  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
If the ERG had wanted Brexit they could have voted for May's deal and - in the 29 March vote - it would have been done. How come you refuse to criticise the ERM for blocking their own government when their part in the story is probably the most significant?

Oh and remember, Johnson did EXACTLY what he later punished others for doing in voting against his own party and government.
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Old 17.12.2019, 16:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Johnson is a clever, dangerous man. Always has been. Dark days ahead I reckon. Much shenanigans. Look at where Nicky Morgan has ended up despite what she did. An unelected politician.
  #25540  
Old 17.12.2019, 16:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Johnson is a clever, dangerous man. Always has been. Dark days ahead I reckon. Much shenanigans. Look at where Nicky Morgan has ended up despite what she did. An unelected politician.
I think he's ambitious beyond his natural talents and malleable. It's the latter that concerns me. As for Morgan, this scenario has happened before with Lord Adonis and Lord Mandelson under Labour. The real issue is if Zac Goldsmith keeps his ministerial job as a Lord. I don't know when the last time was that the Cabinet consisted of two HoL members.
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