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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25601  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I agree with all of this except I agree with FMF's statement - I do believe MP's have tried to stop this because they genuinely thought it was the best thing for the country. If you look at dominic grieve he's an intelligent patriotic person and I completely get what he was trying to do. It's cameron that should be shot for setting it up, but the result is the result, im afraid you cannot - in a modern functioning democracy - try and reverse the result of a nationwide poll and expect to get away with it.
I don't think anyone (apart from the LibDems) was actively trying to stop Brexit. The voting in parliament has been mainly either to prevent a no deal which, ok, most people agree would be crap for the UK and I think here those MPs trying to prevent that are correct, or they've been objecting to the details of the deals put before them. But none of that is stopping Brexit, it's more damage limitation and attempting to increase the possibilities of negotiation to depart under the best conditions.
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  #25602  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

And once Brexit is done, it will be time for us to dump the bilaterals, especially FMOP!

Tom
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  #25603  
Old 17.12.2019, 14:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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... but the result is the result, im afraid you cannot - in a modern functioning democracy - try and reverse the result of a nationwide poll and expect to get away with it.
Unless you're Simon Cowell
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  #25604  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
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  #25605  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And once Brexit is done, it will be time for us to dump the bilaterals, especially FMOP!

Tom
Us who?
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  #25606  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't think anyone (apart from the LibDems) was actively trying to stop Brexit. The voting in parliament has been mainly either to prevent a no deal which, ok, most people agree would be crap for the UK and I think here those MPs trying to prevent that are correct, or they've been objecting to the details of the deals put before them. But none of that is stopping Brexit, it's more damage limitation and attempting to increase the possibilities of negotiation to depart under the best conditions.
A lot of the delays and shenanigans were down to the impact of the Ref result on UK constitutional law. I've conversed with at least one constitutional law expert (mainly the Brummie one who claims to bear a passing resemblance to Wednesday Addams ) and he can't wait for the day when he can go back to being a boring fart of a geek. None of them expected to be catapulted into the spotlight, or to take the immense amount of abuse that they've endured over the last few years, simply for doing the job that nobody paid a blind bit of notice to pre-2016.

Personally, when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving the EU, I knew much of that stuff beforehand through work, etc, particularly regarding employment legislation and supply chains. The real learning curve for me has been the impact in law. I never expected to be gripped by day after day of High Court and Supreme Court proceedings with my brother on speed dial to explain the bits that I didn't understand. UK law is where the earthquake has happened. Parliament is just the aftershock. UK law is where the battleground will continue to be for now, because we have a PM with a degree in Classics intent on riding roughshod over UK law and the constitution.
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  #25607  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A lot of the delays and shenanigans were down to the impact of the Ref result on UK constitutional law. I've conversed with at least one constitutional law expert (mainly the Brummie one who claims to bear a passing resemblance to Wednesday Addams ) and he can't wait for the day when he can go back to being a boring fart of a geek. None of them expected to be catapulted into the spotlight, or to take the immense amount of abuse that they've endured over the last few years, simply for doing the job that nobody paid a blind bit of notice to pre-2016.

Personally, when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving the EU, I knew much of that stuff beforehand through work, etc, particularly regarding employment legislation and supply chains. The real learning curve for me has been the impact in law. I never expected to be gripped by day after day of High Court and Supreme Court proceedings with my brother on speed dial to explain the bits that I didn't understand. UK law is where the earthquake has happened. Parliament is just the aftershock. UK law is where the battleground will continue to be for now, because we have a PM with a degree in Classics intent on riding roughshod over UK law and the constitution.
Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit. Remainers should have thought of that before the likes of Jo Maugham and Gina Miller went through their little pantomime in the courts. I mean Parliament is sovereign, right? We've been getting that rammed down our necks for the past 3 and half years, haven't we?

The same goes for John Bercow for tearing up centuries of convention. We were all there warning of the implications of going down this road! Such was the fevor to stop Brexit that no one paid attention. Now providence has come to teach the Remainers a lesson in humility.
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  #25608  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit. Remainers should have thought of that before the likes of Jo Maugham and Gina Miller went through their little pantomime in the courts. I mean Parliament is sovereign, right? We've been getting that rammed down our necks for the past 3 and half years, haven't we?

The same goes for John Bercow for tearing up centuries of convention. We were all there warning of the implications of going down this road! Such was the fevor to stop Brexit that no one paid attention. Now providence has come to teach the Remainers a lesson in humility.
But, but, but... you said Brexit wasn't good. "As big a threat as having a Corbyn government", as I recall. Given how much you venom you hold for Corbyn, that puts Brexit on a pretty low-in-the-gutter footing too, right?

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Likely more of the same? Certainly nothing that is as bad as what would happen under Jeremy Corbyn. The pound already dropped last night on news of the polls tightening. He is seen as bigger threat to the economy than Brexit.
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  #25609  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
this I agree with, Boris has played everyone who doubted him for fools, no one in his party will dare to screw with him now
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  #25610  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris Johnson has got a massive majority now so he can just change the law if he sees fit.
Not true!

Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
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  #25611  
Old 17.12.2019, 15:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If MPs didn't want a hard Brexit then they could have simply voted through Theresa May's deal. This was however never about hard and soft Brexit, their aim from the very beginning was to try and prevent Brexit and the voters saw straight their sordid little plot. In their treachery and conspiracy with the EU, they've paved the way for something far worse (for them) to happen!

Boris Johnson was a genius to remove the whip from all those that defied him. He was laughed at at the time for all his losses in Parliament. Now he's been returned with a large majority and all the turncoats and impostors have lost their seats. It will go down as historic error of judgement by Remainers not to back Mrs May!
If the ERG had wanted Brexit they could have voted for May's deal and - in the 29 March vote - it would have been done. How come you refuse to criticise the ERM for blocking their own government when their part in the story is probably the most significant?

Oh and remember, Johnson did EXACTLY what he later punished others for doing in voting against his own party and government.
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  #25612  
Old 17.12.2019, 16:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Johnson is a clever, dangerous man. Always has been. Dark days ahead I reckon. Much shenanigans. Look at where Nicky Morgan has ended up despite what she did. An unelected politician.
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  #25613  
Old 17.12.2019, 16:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Johnson is a clever, dangerous man. Always has been. Dark days ahead I reckon. Much shenanigans. Look at where Nicky Morgan has ended up despite what she did. An unelected politician.
I think he's ambitious beyond his natural talents and malleable. It's the latter that concerns me. As for Morgan, this scenario has happened before with Lord Adonis and Lord Mandelson under Labour. The real issue is if Zac Goldsmith keeps his ministerial job as a Lord. I don't know when the last time was that the Cabinet consisted of two HoL members.
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  #25614  
Old 17.12.2019, 17:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If the ERG had wanted Brexit they could have voted for May's deal and - in the 29 March vote - it would have been done. How come you refuse to criticise the ERM for blocking their own government when their part in the story is probably the most significant?

Oh and remember, Johnson did EXACTLY what he later punished others for doing in voting against his own party and government.
Why should I mention the ERG when their objectives were entirely different to that of Remain MPs? Besides, if Remain MPs had backed Mrs May's withdrawal agreement then the actions of the ERG would have been rendered irrelevant.

As an aside, the ERG also took a gamble in rejecting Theresa May's withdrawal agreement however it paid off for them.

What Boris Johnson did was not exactly the same as what he punished others for. The difference is night and day. What Boris Johnson and many others did at that time was simply not give Theresa May's government the approval which is sought (for its withdrawal bill).

The likes of Dominic Grieve and Philip Hammond lost the whip for voting for the Benn Act. This was Bill tabled by an opposition MP where the sole purpose of it was to take the power to rule away from the government, and hand it to a group of Rebel MPs and the opposition. This disempowered the party which these MPs had been elected to represent. It also removed executive power and forced a sitting Prime Minister to accept any proposal made by the EU for an extension period to leaving the EU.

The Benn Act was a shameful act of Parliament, and it was correct that the 21 Conservative MPs who backed it lost the whip. It's also another example of the action of Remain MP's doing something that has now blown up in their faces. Convention now doesn't matter so Boris Johnson can limit further delay to the Brexit Bill beyond 2020 and this must now be respected because a simple Parliamentary majority will vote for it. Scrutiny matters not. Thanks Remainers!
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  #25615  
Old 17.12.2019, 17:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why should I mention the ERG when their objectives were entirely different to that of Remain MPs? Besides, if Remain MPs had backed Mrs May's withdrawal agreement then the actions of the ERG would have been rendered irrelevant.

As an aside, the ERG also took a gamble in rejecting Theresa May's withdrawal agreement however it paid off for them.
So...let me get this right...If the people who were diametrically opposed to the view had kowtowed to it, instead of the people who were the architects of said view, everything would have been hunky dory?



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  #25616  
Old 17.12.2019, 17:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Boris is a genius, he's got rid of every single tory mp that disagreed with him, lost every vote he's tabled yet kept his job, got away with telling one of, if not the biggest lie in politics since "I've not had sexual relations with that women" and got away scottt free, turned a minority gov into a huge majority gov and got labour voters to elect tories, and no one seems to give a toss about his personal misdeeds, no one is that lucky by fluke
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Old 17.12.2019, 18:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris is a genius, he's got rid of every single tory mp that disagreed with him, lost every vote he's tabled yet kept his job, got away with telling one of, if not the biggest lie in politics since "I've not had sexual relations with that women" and got away scottt free, turned a minority gov into a huge majority gov and got labour voters to elect tories, and no one seems to give a toss about his personal misdeeds, no one is that lucky by fluke
Probably avoiding nearly all the interviews and debates helped him. Those he did attend he just blustered and stammered his way through. I guess his PR team and advisers were instrumental in keeping him away from them. Causes outrage at the time but it seems he was working on "least said, soonest mended".

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Old 17.12.2019, 18:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Boris is a genius, he's got rid of every single tory mp that disagreed with him, lost every vote he's tabled yet kept his job, got away with telling one of, ...
I think the genius is Cummings personally. Johnson is a great manager as long as he delegates well. His failing has always been when he becomes too personally embroiled in a project, such as the Garden Bridge, and tries to micromanage it (and don't we all hate micromanagers ).
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Old 17.12.2019, 19:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A lot of the delays and shenanigans were down to the impact of the Ref result on UK constitutional law. I've conversed with at least one constitutional law expert (mainly the Brummie one who claims to bear a passing resemblance to Wednesday Addams ) and he can't wait for the day when he can go back to being a boring fart of a geek. None of them expected to be catapulted into the spotlight, or to take the immense amount of abuse that they've endured over the last few years, simply for doing the job that nobody paid a blind bit of notice to pre-2016.

Personally, when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving the EU, I knew much of that stuff beforehand through work, etc, particularly regarding employment legislation and supply chains. The real learning curve for me has been the impact in law. I never expected to be gripped by day after day of High Court and Supreme Court proceedings with my brother on speed dial to explain the bits that I didn't understand. UK law is where the earthquake has happened. Parliament is just the aftershock. UK law is where the battleground will continue to be for now, because we have a PM with a degree in Classics intent on riding roughshod over UK law and the constitution.
Very interesting post. It's incredible they didn't think of all of these earlier, even before the referendum.
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Old 17.12.2019, 19:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Johnson is a clever, dangerous man. Always has been. Dark days ahead I reckon. Much shenanigans. Look at where Nicky Morgan has ended up despite what she did. An unelected politician.
Wow, the first good word you have said about Johnson, I just spat my wine over my computer in shock!
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