The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Pashosh]

	Quote:
	And this is a good thing? I believe your priorities are skewed. Mind you, I also believe you don't really have a clue about the UK either, so...

Some people have other priorities than racism,economy or foreign policy.

But most British voters looked at Labour and what it had to offer in those areas and didn't like what they saw.

According to you, their priorities are skewed.

At least you are not alone - Luminaries like Richard Burgon, Chris Williamson, George Galloway and the latest addition Claudia Webbe also think that the majority made a mistake and Corbyn's policies would have been better than BoJo's.

Boris would have to work hard for many years to achieve a Corbyn level of racism.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Boris would have to work hard for many years to achieve a Corbyn level of racism.

Boris and hard work? Does not compute.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Don't know if this is serious or not, but have no idea who Rebecca Long-Bailey is.

She's a bright one, there's no denying that. Unusual work history then trained and worked as a commercial law solicitor.

I'm overly aware that women are often the worst critics of other women. For me, personally, I wouldn't want Long-Bailey as my manager, let alone a party leader. Her personna goes from being like nails dragged down a blackboard to droning, and I just switch off. Sorry.

Angela Rayner has a good backstory, single mum at 16/17, trained as a social care worker, union rep (totally relate to that part), but she can be overpowering. She has a tendancy to talk over people in interviews and attack the wrong things such as media bias of the interviewer's employer instead of the policies she's being interviewed about. Can be shrieky and appear stubborn and bad-tempered. She needs media training asap.

Now that Emily Thornberry has formally entered the competition...hmmmm. No like. She could be a woman, man, cat, dog, wildebeest...I really don't care. I just can't like her. She gave a lunchtime news interview the other day which had to be bleeped because of her bad language, and I really don't like that. Everything I see of her screams vicious, mean, vindictive, and I have a personal issue with people who can't look you in the eye when they're talking to you. Former MP, Alan Johnson, was as working class as they come, but you never felt that he was going to swear in a daytime interview.

Wild card...Dan Jarvis.
14yrs in the army, some in 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment and as a platoon commander. Left the army shortly after his 1st wife died of cancer at 43. Lifelong Labour Party member. After someone like Corbyn, Jarvis could be exactly what Labour need more than they know. Despite having impressive experience in leadership, tactical skills and defence, he's been a widower and had the huge life change that many ex-military go through. With mental health, particularly of ex services people so high on the agenda, he's got a unique insight. But best of all, he makes Johnson look shoddy by comparison.
https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/up...-group-of-mps/

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	True. One of just two reasons, apparently...

You've misquoted me there, and that's not nice. I don't know how you're able to dig that out but if you were to show what I was replying to, I've never said that antisemitism is the only reason people didn't vote for Corbyn, it's not honest to suggest otherwise.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Don't know if this is serious or not, but have no idea who Rebecca Long-Bailey is. Young age alone does not really recommend her. Perhaps you should have added more details about her? Why do you think, for instance, that she's very likely to be the next Labour leader? Did she do something special? What was her profession before politics? Which area is her expertise? I prefer younger leaders, but not always. There must be some other qualities/achievements that would recommend them. However, I feel like many competent politicians are not getting the positions they deserve exactly because of their age/lack of "influence" and not something else.

Rebecca Long-Bailey will likely be the next leader because of Momentum, she was close to Corbyn and they like that in spite of all that has happened. If she does win the leadership contest then they may as well start preparing for 2029 because there is no chance of them winning an election with her as leader.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You've misquoted me there, and that's not nice. I don't know how you're able to dig that out but if you were to show what I was replying to, I've never said that antisemitism is the only reason people didn't vote for Corbyn, it's not honest to suggest otherwise.

Read my post. I see that you say it isn't the "only" reason. You quote TWO reasons: antisemitism AND socialism.

Nothing to do with being "honest" or "nice", just reading what's there.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Read my post. I see that you say it isn't the "only" reason. You quote TWO reasons: antisemitism AND socialism. Nothing to do with being "honest" or "nice", just reading what's there.

It’s nothing to do with one or two as you well know!

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It’s nothing to do with one or two as you well know!

So go on then. What did you mean by this:

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	No I've said all I had to say on the matter. Antisemitism and socialism are the two and only reasons. If it wasn't for the antisemitism, I may have welcomed a dose Marxist misery on the UK to teach the middle class and student sneerers a lesson in what it really means. As it is I will be praying to God in Heaven to deliver a Conservative victory so that our Jewish friends can once again feel reassured and safeguarded.

It's not exactly a multi bullet-pointed list of reasons not to vote Labour is it, flower?

	Quote:
	So go on then. What did you mean by this: It's not exactly a multi bullet-pointed list of reasons not to vote Labour is it, flower?

Haha, game, set and match SG.

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Some people have other priorities than racism,economy or foreign policy. But most British voters looked at Labour and what it had to offer in those areas and didn't like what they saw. According to you, their priorities are skewed. At least you are not alone - Luminaries like Richard Burgon, Chris Williamson, George Galloway and the latest addition Claudia Webbe also think that the majority made a mistake and Corbyn's policies would have been better than BoJo's. Boris would have to work hard for many years to achieve a Corbyn level of racism.

I don't want back peddling and fact twisting which is what we have ended up with.

Johnson is racist. And sexist. And probably all the ists.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	So go on then. What did you mean by this: It's not exactly a multi bullet-pointed list of reasons not to vote Labour is it, flower?

Do the decent thing and quote the post I was replying to as well. Plus you’ve changed your accusation, you said originally that I said that was the only reason people didn’t vote for Labour, now you’ve seamlessly switched to not to. There’s a big difference between looking forward and looking back as you well know! Are you just here to score cheap points?

[hairybadger]

	Quote:
	I don't want back peddling and fact twisting which is what we have ended up with. Johnson is racist. And sexist. And probably all the ists.

Piss artist?

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Are you just here to score cheap points?

There's an expression about a kettle and a pot that I just can't put my finger on at the moment

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	It's not exactly a multi bullet-pointed list of reasons not to vote Labour is it, flower?

Don't disturb him. He's probably still looing for a spire in Wigan to wax lyrical about

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	.......A look at any map of the results of the last election would prove that last point to be nonsense. You also don’t appear to appreciate the realignment that has taken place to the English speaking world’s political compass in recent years. Taking aside that Leave/Remain will likely be the key issues which determines who people vote for in the coming election, there has also been a shift parties that best represents people’s values...............

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	This election wasn’t a referendum. Remainers will have voted for Leave parties, Leavers will have voted for Labour.

Good, you now agree with me that Leave/Remain was not the key issue.

[Blueangel]

This is alarming...

	Quote:
	Britain First urges supporters to join Conservative Party ‘to make Boris Johnson’s leadership more secure’ Far-right group’s chief of staff is among extremists who claim to have become Tory members

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9252201.html

[amogles]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	This is alarming... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9252201.html

Britain First is pretty much an insignificant fringe group even among the insignificant fringe groups, that somehow manages to grab the headlines every so often. They are not at all in the same category of influence as Momentum is, as this article seems to be suggesting.

Boris is not one bit dependent on people like that to support him or keep him in power and they have no leverage over him. None at all. They live in a fantasy bubble and it is only in their own imagination that they are propping Boris up.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	amogles
	Britain First is pretty much an insignificant fringe group even among the insignificant fringe groups, that somehow manages to grab the headlines every so often. They are not at all in the same category of influence as Momentum is, as this article seems to be suggesting. Boris is not one bit dependent on people like that to support him or keep him in power and they have no leverage over him. None at all. They live in a fantasy bubble and it is only in their own imagination that they are propping Boris up.

This is true, nevertheless the Conservatives should remain vigilant that their party doesn’t get infiltrated in the same way as Labour has. We need to protect our Muslims friends from the scourge of extremism like Britain First and the EDL!

[TonyClifton]

Tony Blair gave an interesting speech yesterday on the issues that Labour face, it would better had he not completely whitewashed his own role in trying to thwart Brexit.

Looking at the task ahead of Labour, it’s barely worth discussing who their next leader will be. I just don’t see how they can win a majority in the next election whoever their leader is. They’ve lost Scotland, much of the Midlands and are basically restricted to London and the North West.

The next leader needs needs to reconcile the different needs of these regions (which are very different) whilst also trying to win over Tory and Lib Dem regions. At the moment I don’t see how this is possible, last time it took a once in a generation gifted politician like Tony Blair to manage this task. Labour have no one if his ability at present.

[Sky]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	She's a bright one, there's no denying that. Unusual work history then trained and worked as a commercial law solicitor. I'm overly aware that women are often the worst critics of other women. For me, personally, I wouldn't want Long-Bailey as my manager, let alone a party leader. Her personna goes from being like nails dragged down a blackboard to droning, and I just switch off. Sorry. Angela Rayner has a good backstory, single mum at 16/17, trained as a social care worker, union rep (totally relate to that part), but she can be overpowering. She has a tendancy to talk over people in interviews and attack the wrong things such as media bias of the interviewer's employer instead of the policies she's being interviewed about. Can be shrieky and appear stubborn and bad-tempered. She needs media training asap. Now that Emily Thornberry has formally entered the competition...hmmmm. No like. She could be a woman, man, cat, dog, wildebeest...I really don't care. I just can't like her. She gave a lunchtime news interview the other day which had to be bleeped because of her bad language, and I really don't like that. Everything I see of her screams vicious, mean, vindictive, and I have a personal issue with people who can't look you in the eye when they're talking to you. Former MP, Alan Johnson, was as working class as they come, but you never felt that he was going to swear in a daytime interview. Wild card...Dan Jarvis. 14yrs in the army, some in 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment and as a platoon commander. Left the army shortly after his 1st wife died of cancer at 43. Lifelong Labour Party member. After someone like Corbyn, Jarvis could be exactly what Labour need more than they know. Despite having impressive experience in leadership, tactical skills and defence, he's been a widower and had the huge life change that many ex-military go through. With mental health, particularly of ex services people so high on the agenda, he's got a unique insight. But best of all, he makes Johnson look shoddy by comparison. https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/up...-group-of-mps/

I very much appreciated this synopsis Blueangel.
Also, in addition to your explanation you nailed a true psychological point that is pivotal in a voter’s assessment of a politician: body language and most especially «voice». I find it interesting that so many candidates or elected politicians have not figured out that it is not just what they say that counts, but how they say it and how their voice sounds and carries. They can be intelligent yet not heard if they have an irritating or monotone voice. The contrary is also a fact. An excellent rhetor can be an utter fool yet impress the people if he/she can manage to tap into the «pathos» by his/her voice.
I often wonder to what extent we actually listen to what politicians are saying.
Nobody has the possibility to extract themselves from their impressions.

Btw.. after reading you.. my pick would immediately be Dan Jarvis.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Tony Blair gave an interesting speech yesterday on the issues that Labour face, it would better had he not completely whitewashed his own role in trying to thwart Brexit. Looking at the task ahead of Labour, it’s barely worth discussing who their next leader will be. I just don’t see how they can win a majority in the next election whoever their leader is. They’ve lost Scotland, much of the Midlands and are basically restricted to London and the North West. The next leader needs needs to reconcile the different needs of these regions (which are very different) whilst also trying to win over Tory and Lib Dem regions. At the moment I don’t see how this is possible, last time it took a once in a generation gifted politician like Tony Blair to manage this task. Labour have no one if his ability at present.

Please don't overdo the praise of Blair.

[amogles]

Blair's opinion doesn't carry much weight IMHO.

He's just the sleazy populist he always was, trying to figure out where people are going so he can pretend to be leading them there.

Now that Corbyn is defeated and on the ground he's trying to score cheap points by kicking him harder.