The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages? wow the standard required must have dropped since I did O levels!

Can't hand on heart say how many language classes a week kids get - I suppose some get taught French and German, so maybe get 1 or 2 lessons of each a week - either way, 90 mins of non-personal, non-intensive classes isn't the same as heavy home / cultural exposure.

If we take the 10,000 hours to master something rule, at the rates above, kids going to school 30 weeks a year would need to stay in education for 222 years to get to that level whereas people who have exposure 8 hours a day at home need about 3.5 years.

Slightly oversimplified of course, but does show the disparity between classroom and home exposure.

[marton]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite. Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip: Quote: Every year at the moment, around 27k nurses leave th NHS. I want to reduce that number. Even if we didn't have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS. That contributes ... That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS and that's very important. [... continues with recruiting ...]

" That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS" Only a politician could say this; it is like saying if I have CHF 100 in my savings account and do not take out any money from it then the value my savings account will be more than CHF 100.

I agree retaining existing nurses is a good policy but to say it "contributes to increasing the number of nurses" is pure nonsense.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Can't hand on heart say how many language classes a week kids get - I suppose some get taught French and German, so maybe get 1 or 2 lessons of each a week - either way, 90 mins of non-personal, non-intensive classes isn't the same as heavy home / cultural exposure.

I have no idea how it is now, but 35+ years ago we had English, Irish and French everyday and a double class of each once a week. And English, Irish plus a foreign language was mandatory for university entry. And all civil service and local governments work required English and Irish. So building a career with just English was not really much of an option.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	I have no idea how it is now, but 35+ years ago we had English, Irish and French everyday and a double class of each once a week. And English, Irish plus a foreign language was mandatory for university entry. And all civil service and local governments work required English and Irish. So building a career with just English was not really much of an option.

This does confirm that teaching in England is very poor where foreign languages are concerned, if the Irish schools can get do it there is really no excuse. drum roll over to you Rufus........

[Blueangel]

I've heard that the new Star Wars film isn't quite as good as it could have been. Drum roll...... over to you FMF

[curley]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I've heard that the new Star Wars film isn't quite as good as it could have been. Drum roll...... over to you FMF

The christmas video clip of the Bernese police is NOT the new Star Wars film.

Just thought I'd mention that.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite. Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip:

Er.... thanks for the unnecessary snark, I'm sure. What on earth is that all about FFS? Rude.


I was referring to the original intention of the Tories recruiting more nurses, not quoting from the clip. I don't get all my political news from Twitter.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages? wow the standard required must have dropped since I did O levels! Rufus liked your post so I guess it must be true

No. They don't. I was agreeing with the sentiment. You really are scraping the barrel. You do seem alarmingly desperate for my attention. How weird.

It's clear you don't know what you're talking about regarding state education. Also, I'm not an MFL teacher, nor do I write education policy. Take it up with your beloved Tories. They're the ones that cocked it all up.

I think it is very safe to say that standards are quite different from when you were at your school.


StirB: Re MFL teaching... it varies depending on timetables but there will be 2-3 hours a week of MFL, similar to history, geography, technology, art and PE provision, more than RE, less than the core subjects. Approx 25 -30 lessons per week across all subjects all in, depending on how long each individual lesson is as it can vary quite a bit.

	Quote:
	StirB: Re MFL teaching... it varies depending on timetables but there will be 2-3 hours a week of MFL, similar to history, geography, technology, art and PE provision, more than RE, less than the core subjects. Approx 25 -30 lessons per week across all subjects all in, depending on how long each individual lessons are as it can vary.

Good news! So it may take as few as 111 years of being in school to master a language

	Quote:
	Good news! So it may take as few as 111 years of being in school to master a language

Exactly. Hardly any time at all.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages?

They have the same amount as we had when we were at school although I believe they have the option to drop foreign languages before GSCE these days. That wasn’t an option for us, we had to do at least one foreign language up to o’level.

I passed o’ level French but I wouldn’t say that gave me the ability to really speak French. It takes a lot more than a couple of lessons a week and a piece of paper to be able to speak a language. Exposure is a much bigger factor than teaching hours.

The French are no better at speaking foreign languages than the brits are.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	That wasn’t an option for us, we had to do at least one foreign language up to o’level.

I studied French at school from age 8-13 and German from 11-13. Dropped both in my 3rd year options at high school because they clashed with Biology and Chemistry on the timetable, and I needed the sciences for my (then) career choice. Went back to both and started Italian at night class in my early 20s. I find that German has changed considerably since I first studied it from 1976-78.

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	They have the same amount as we had when we were at school although I believe they have the option to drop foreign languages before GSCE these days. That wasn’t an option for us, we had to do at least one foreign language up to o’level. I passed o’ level French but I wouldn’t say that gave me the ability to really speak French. It takes a lot more than a couple of lessons a week and a piece of paper to be able to speak a language. Exposure is a much bigger factor than teaching hours. The French are no better at speaking foreign languages than the brits are.

Some schools allow this but tend to get told off for it by Ofsted (anecdote alert) but most have a policy of at least one MFL at GCSE for most students. It's the IBacc nod. I did two MFLs at GCSE because my school was huge and had the capacity. I didn't do geography or History post 14 though as I took Music as my humanities subject.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:
	Some schools allow this but tend to get told off for it by Ofsted (anecdote alert) but most have a policy of at least one MFL at GCSE for most students. It's the IBacc nod. I did two MFLs at GCSE because my school was huge and had the capacity. I didn't do geography or History post 14 though as I took Music as my humanities subject.

I know both my nephew and a friend’s daughter dropped languages before GSCE but were advised not to. Different schools in different parts of the country.

I did two languages to o’ level too (although one was Latin), I’d have preferred not to but we didn’t have the option. I couldn’t do history as it would have meant dropping one of my preferred subjects due to the way the options were organised. I’d have much preferred history to Latin.
I did music outside of school up to A’ level equivalent.

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	I know both my nephew and a friend’s daughter dropped languages before GSCE but were advised not to. Different schools in different parts of the country. I did two languages to o’ level too (although one was Latin), I’d have preferred not to but we didn’t have the option. I couldn’t do history as it would have meant dropping one of my preferred subjects due to the way the options were organised. I’d have much preferred history to Latin. I did music outside of school up to A’ level equivalent.

I would have loved to have learned latin.

[MusicChick]

I think the success in CH with foreign language learning isn't just exposure, I wouldn't take the credit away where it's due. Kids at Sec I. in our area already get 3-4 classes of the 1st foreign language per week with 3-4 classes of another foreign language per week. The classes are intense with heavy homework as well. The kids see the use of all of it, are made responsible for their progress, can practice with multilingual buddies and travel a lot. All this combined, with no possibility to really 'drop' a language makes the language learning really work. It is a prioriry and it is valued in the society, too. Trying to fix it in a high school age makes it less smooth. Kids I know start really early, 8-9yrs old. We pretty much only have multilingual colleagues, friends, neighbors and family. It is not only in CH where foreign language acquisition is a priority.

What I think is a shame is that there is no longer much interest in Latin, unfortunately, statistically speaking. But the option is there and 12yr olds can get as much as 6 quality classes per week here should they opt for it. That's fantastic.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:
	I would have loved to have learned latin.

I hated it at the time but really appreciated it later on.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Good news! So it may take as few as 111 years of being in school to master a language

I guess the Swiss kids are more intelligent than British kids, silly me thinking it was anything to to with the teaching.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think the success in CH with foreign language learning isn't just exposure, I wouldn't take the credit away where it's due. Kids at Sec I. in our area already get 3-4 classes of the 1st foreign language per week with 3-4 classes of another foreign language per week. The classes are intense with heavy homework as well. The kids see the use of all of it, are made responsible for their progress, can practice with multilingual buddies and travel a lot. All this combined, with no possibility to really 'drop' a language makes the language learning really work. It is a prioriry and it is valued in the society, too. Trying to fix it in a high school age makes it less smooth. Kids I know start really early, 8-9yrs old. We pretty much only have multilingual colleagues, friends, neighbors and family. It is not only in CH where foreign language acquisition is a priority. What I think is a shame is that there is no longer much interest in Latin, unfortunately, statistically speaking. But the option is there and 12yr olds can get as much as 6 quality classes per week here should they opt for it. That's fantastic.

Oh wait it's the teaching, where languages are deemed to be important

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I guess the Swiss kids are more intelligent than British kids, silly me thinking it was anything to to with the teaching. Oh wait it's the teaching, where languages are deemed to be important

Well according to the accounts of MC and various other UK based teachers, UK and CH students get roughly the same amount of classroom time.

Swiss students, certainly anecdotally (and I am sure empirically) appear to speak more languages on average and better.

You could attribute it to the teaching, but that would be ignoring the vast swathes of evidence that immersion in a language is incredibly important to learning it. You can turn on the council TV here and have shows in any of about 5 languages, same with newspapers and magazines. Every other person you meet in Zurich has an Italian or French name and often can speak that language.

I know you want to blame UK teachers, but you're onto a loser here.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I guess the Swiss kids are more intelligent than British kids, silly me thinking it was anything to to with the teaching. Oh wait it's the teaching, where languages are deemed to be important

Yes. And kids know that it is important for them, it was for their folks and it is a value in general, for the society. Not just EN but all languages. It increases mobility and employability.

Now - Brussels English as one common language of communication might not have had the same effect, the EU language policy might not have been as successful as the lang policies in small, independent areas. It is my experience. But there are pretty heavy works written on it, Vienna is the seat of that epistemology/ling stream. And they are correct, imho.