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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25781  
Old 21.12.2019, 13:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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UK was a member of EU as a result of a democratic process. Some people wanted to change that. And here we are.
Not true

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An advisory referendum.
No, Ted Heath joined the Common Market without an advisory referendum on the question of joining. You may be thinking of the leave / remain advisory referendum in 1975 a couple of years after joining.
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  #25782  
Old 21.12.2019, 13:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And the poor Welsh still keep getting forgotten! England is historically far more ethnically diverse than Scotland so this argument doesn’t make sense!
Maybe look at which country welcomes outsiders and which wants to stop any more of them getting in (and indeed has been actively illegally deporting them; see Windrush).
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  #25783  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I daresay that on average people with higher education will earn more in the long run, so they are really subsidising their former selves, aren’t they? The amount of people earning enough to pay any decent sum of tax between the ages of 18-21 must be tiny, so I doubt they pay enough to cover themselves, nevermind subsidise others.
83% clearly don't, 83% is the overwhelming Majority.

Paid for by the top 17% many of whom did not get a degree, just like several billionaires.

I paid tax from 16 & was a higher rate tax payer by 21, I can't think it's that unusual, probably about the same percentages as people who got degrees. You can apply the simple 80/20 rule to most things in daily life.
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  #25784  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You can apply the simple 80/20 rule to most things in daily life.
Your inaccurate guesstimates vs accurate ones?
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  #25785  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Your inaccurate guesstimates vs accurate ones?
Which was my inaccurate guesstimate? Full fact agree with 83% not repaying in full
https://fullfact.org/education/about...k-their-loans/
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  #25786  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not true

.
How comes? Were those governments not elected democratically? There is such a thing as representative democracy as you may well know. I'd like to see how you explain your two words line, FMF, but I'm afraid I got too tired by this continuous, relentless nonsense.
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  #25787  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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How comes? Were those governments not elected democratically? There is such a thing as representative democracy as you may well know. I'd like to see how you explain your two words line, FMF, but I'm afraid I got too tired by this continuous, relentless nonsense.

The claim was an 'advisory referendum' before joining which is not true. The conservatives were elected, but that is not something I was disputing.

1970 Conservative party Manifesto
http://www.conservativemanifesto.com...anifesto.shtml

'I want to see a fresh approach to the taking of decisions. The Government should seek the best advice and listen carefully to it. It should not rush into decisions,' yet 3 years later joined the Common Market!

Leaving is a much more democratic process than joining was

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 21.12.2019 at 14:54. Reason: Leaving.....
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  #25788  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Interesting question I've just read, and wondered if any bright sparks here have an answer...

'Have any other negotiations in history set out to make the trading relationship between two parties *more* complicated than the status quo?'
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  #25789  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Even he doesn't look convinced by the "maths". What a spoon. Can't wait to see his workings out for new teachers.
Retention = more. We are forking doomed.
Abbott can't do basic math.
Hancock is backpedaling like a career politician.

The UK had to choose between incompetent racists with obsolete economic ideas to career politicians who backpedal and twist facts.

Most people chose wisely.
a - b = c
where b represents the nurses leaving over time. By reducing b (that is, you increase retention) you increase c, which is obviously what he means, and correct maths.

Now, what does that say about those who claim he can't do basic maths?
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  #25790  
Old 21.12.2019, 14:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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a - b = c
where b represents the nurses leaving over time. By reducing b you increase c, which is obviously what he means, and correct maths.
Ah! Classic diversion. So much time was concentrated on the maths that the real question, "How the hell are you going to recruit 30,500 new nurses and over what timescale?" got lost/overshadowed in the mix. Reintroducing nursing bursaries isn't enough.

It's the same with the 20k new police. The costings don't add up.
My best mate left the police almost 3yrs ago. Over the last year, she's worked 6 out of 12mths for them as a subcontractor delivering training. The proposed inducement for the new police is to make their training part of a fee free degree course in policing, which sounds great on the surface. Just a couple of problems though... Who is going to deliver these degree courses? Where are these recruits going to be accommodated seeing as so many police residential training centres were closed down and demolished/repurposed? The government haven't factored in basic costs such as uniforms, cars, equipment, subcontracting former police to deliver training, etc...

And the final straw, once the recruits have a fee free degree and 3yrs wages under their belts, what will be the inducement to retain them as police officers?
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  #25791  
Old 21.12.2019, 15:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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For me it doesn't matter one way or the other.

I look out for candidates who have the right ideas and also have the ability to defend and implement them.

If you start pre-selecting them based on man / woman, young / old, colour of skin or anything like that you are artificially thinning the pool of potential candidates.

Exceptions may apply if it is the person's responsibility to specifically represent or liase with a specific group. But at a party leadership level, the person should represent all categories equally.
Yes but no.

In a democracy every politician is a representative. The better their support the better they can work for their supporters' interests. Thus they need to be accepted, which is where age and experience come into play. Even in those cases where experience means nothing except the fact that you've already made certain mistakes (you're dealing with humans, after all) and learnt your lessons vs those people who still have that ahead of them. Think Frau Rytz from the Swiss Greens and her candidacy for Bundesrat (not sure she learned from the failed candidacy though, but that's another story).
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  #25792  
Old 21.12.2019, 15:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ah! Classic diversion. So much time was concentrated on the maths that the real question, "How the hell are you going to recruit 30,500 new nurses and over what timescale?" got lost/overshadowed in the mix. Reintroducing nursing bursaries isn't enough.
LMAO, you reproach others from raising red herrings where it doesn't apply while you do exactly that in the very same sentence.

Last edited by Urs Max; 21.12.2019 at 15:32.
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  #25793  
Old 21.12.2019, 16:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

So are Boris and the Tories really calling all the shots to Get Brexit Done in the New Year ?


Name:  Get Brexit done cartoon.jpg
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  #25794  
Old 21.12.2019, 17:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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a - b = c
where b represents the nurses leaving over time. By reducing b (that is, you increase retention) you increase c, which is obviously what he means, and correct maths.

Now, what does that say about those who claim he can't do basic maths?
No. He said new nurses. Retaining more existing nurses is not recruiting more nurses. It's merely pissing off and demoralising fewer nurses. And if you retain more, but are still losing some, whilst simultaneously recruiting none... the numbers go down. They have moved the goalposts again and the bursaries offered do not cover course fees.

Same in education.
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Old 21.12.2019, 18:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ividing-britai

Essentially, the fewer years you've spent in education, the more likely you are to vote Tory. Make of that what you will.
Thank you captain obvious. In western democracies the left is usually strong in Academia and young people. has been for decades. "If you are not a communist at 20 you have'nt got a heart, if you are a communist at 30 you haven't got a brain" and all that.

What was interesting in the last UK elections is the the Left's candidate attracted racists. See survey from your own source, yougov.
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  #25796  
Old 21.12.2019, 18:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Same in education.
I think in education quality trumps quantity, plenty of existing teachers not really performing. Before you jump on me please explain why English kids can generally only speak English fluently, it's not as if foreign languages are not taught. Swiss Kids leave school with a good command of 3 or more languages.
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  #25797  
Old 21.12.2019, 18:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think in education quality trumps quantity, plenty of existing teachers not really performing. Before you jump on me please explain why English kids can generally only speak English fluently, it's not as if foreign languages are not taught. Swiss Kids leave school with a good command of 3 or more languages.
They leave school with a good command of english, likely due to English being all over the internet, movie, social media. I doubt that even 5 percent of german speaking swiss teenagers can hold a decent convesration in french.
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  #25798  
Old 21.12.2019, 18:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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They leave school with a good command of english, likely due to English being all over the internet, movie, social media. I doubt that even 5 percent of german speaking swiss teenagers can hold a decent convesration in french.
About half of the people I worked with in Zurich were fluent in French, however the younger ones did not seem to know any, so you could be right as ZH stopped teaching French fairly recently. Come to think of it they spoke Italian as well so 4 languages was not uncommon.
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  #25799  
Old 21.12.2019, 20:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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They leave school with a good command of english, likely due to English being all over the internet, movie, social media. I doubt that even 5 percent of german speaking swiss teenagers can hold a decent convesration in french.
Well my 30 years experience here suggests otherwise and I expect it is far higher in more recent generations where the teaching emphasis has been on language for living, rather than the way we were taught 50 years ago.

My wife has a very good command of English as translation was her profession at one stage, but my teenagers have a far greater vocabulary as a result of the internet. When I hear them use a word I would not have expected them to know, the usual explanation is: I read it on the internet....
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Old 21.12.2019, 22:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No. He said new nurses. Retaining more existing nurses is not recruiting more nurses. It's merely pissing off and demoralising fewer nurses. And if you retain more, but are still losing some, whilst simultaneously recruiting none... the numbers go down. They have moved the goalposts again and the bursaries offered do not cover course fees.
He actually said there would be less recruiting, because less nurses would leave.

You would rather have more new nurses rather than having more experienced, better motivated nurses at a lower cost to the tax payer (retaining is cheaper than recruiting) ?
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