The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think in education quality trumps quantity, plenty of existing teachers not really performing. Before you jump on me please explain why English kids can generally only speak English fluently, it's not as if foreign languages are not taught. Swiss Kids leave school with a good command of 3 or more languages.

Asked and answered previously. You'll have to search my posts. There are all sorts of reasons that mostly have nothing to do with front line staff.

Basically, the UK, unlike CH, does not have multiple official languages and, for the longest time, English and STEM subjects have been a priority.

Kids don't learn until 11 when they are coping with school change, social group changes, hormonal stuff, peer pressure, embarrassment etc... all makes learning French/German a trial. Most schools of c. 900 plus kids probably only have 3 MFL teachers.

You cannot make sweeping statements about underperforming teachers based solely on school kids' abilities to speak more than one language. Does not compute. Sure, some teachers underperform. Same in every profession. Still isn't enough budget for enough teaching staff though, which was the point.

But if it makes you feel better to think that all teachers are a waste of space, have at it.

	Quote:	Pashosh
	He actually said there would be less recruiting, because less nurses would leave. You would rather have more new nurses rather than having more experienced, better motivated nurses at a lower cost to the tax payer (retaining is cheaper than recruiting) ?

Nope. I would prefer nurses who are not overworked and underpaid. You cannot assume that older/more experienced nurses have more motivation. Plus you need a steady stream of new trained bodies to learn from the experience.

And no. They promised more new nurses. Hancock badly fumbled that interview and what he said was ridiculous. It's a horrible joke.

Experienced nurses, like experienced teachers, are paid more. Not enough, but more.

Recruiting is far less costly now nursing students have to pay their fees and also have to work as bank nurses whilst training so they can afford to live.

[Pashosh]

As long as the final number is the same (which remains to be seen) - it would be better to have more experienced nurses.

Of course, once the magic money tree begins to bear fruit training would be free for all professions, not only nurses.

	Quote:	Pashosh
	As long as the final number is the same (which remains to be seen) - it would be better to have more experienced nurses. Of course, once the magic money tree begins to bear fruit training would be free for all professions, not only nurses.

Of course, experience is key, but everyone has to start somewhere in order to replace the retirees. A steady stream of new, supported by a lot of experience, is a good balance.

Yeah. That would be marvellous.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I think in education quality trumps quantity, plenty of existing teachers not really performing. Before you jump on me please explain why English kids can generally only speak English fluently, it's not as if foreign languages are not taught. Swiss Kids leave school with a good command of 3 or more languages.

English kids generally have English speaking parents. To learn a language well you need more exposure than 45 mins a week.

Immigrant children generally outperform native kids in the UK, and learning multiple languages through exposure at home is a real boon.

As CH has 4 official languages, it's fairly common to have a mix of mother tongues at home, as well as TV and literature in all 4 languages, so again, it is about exposure over here.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:
	No. He said new nurses. Retaining more existing nurses is not recruiting more nurses. It's merely pissing off and demoralising fewer nurses.

Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite.

Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip:

	Quote:
	Every year at the moment, around 27k nurses leave th NHS. I want to reduce that number. Even if we didn't have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS. That contributes ... That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS and that's very important. [... continues with recruiting ...]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Thank you captain obvious. In western democracies the left is usually strong in Academia and young people. has been for decades. "If you are not a communist at 20 you have'nt got a heart, if you are a communist at 30 you haven't got a brain" and all that. What was interesting in the last UK elections is the the Left's candidate attracted racists. See survey from your own source, yougov.

Political persuasion is only significant here if you believe anti-Semitism a greater evil than islamophobia or other forms of racism.

You surely don't believe your pet peeve is more important than discrimination against people of other faiths and colours? There's a word for that, you know.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	English kids generally have English speaking parents. To learn a language well you need more exposure than 45 mins a week.

Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages? wow the standard required must have dropped since I did O levels! Rufus liked your post so I guess it must be true

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite. Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip:

Dunno if you are quoting Bojo here or not, but his health secretary, Matt Hancock had this to say:

Pressed on whether it was 50,000 “new” nurses, he replied: “It’s 50,000 more nurses. A large part of that will be new nurses entering, but also there’s been significant pressures on nurses in recent years and more are leaving the profession than I want to see.

“The number of nurses in the NHS will be 50,000 more than it is today – that is the commitment, we’re going to meet that commitment, I’m absolutely determined about it.”

So 50,000 more than it is today, which means you cannot include any leaving nurses (until they've left) towards that figure.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages? wow the standard required must have dropped since I did O levels!

Can't hand on heart say how many language classes a week kids get - I suppose some get taught French and German, so maybe get 1 or 2 lessons of each a week - either way, 90 mins of non-personal, non-intensive classes isn't the same as heavy home / cultural exposure.

If we take the 10,000 hours to master something rule, at the rates above, kids going to school 30 weeks a year would need to stay in education for 222 years to get to that level whereas people who have exposure 8 hours a day at home need about 3.5 years.

Slightly oversimplified of course, but does show the disparity between classroom and home exposure.

[marton]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite. Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip: Quote: Every year at the moment, around 27k nurses leave th NHS. I want to reduce that number. Even if we didn't have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS. That contributes ... That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS and that's very important. [... continues with recruiting ...]

" That retention of existing nurses contributes to increasing the number of nurses in the NHS" Only a politician could say this; it is like saying if I have CHF 100 in my savings account and do not take out any money from it then the value my savings account will be more than CHF 100.

I agree retaining existing nurses is a good policy but to say it "contributes to increasing the number of nurses" is pure nonsense.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Can't hand on heart say how many language classes a week kids get - I suppose some get taught French and German, so maybe get 1 or 2 lessons of each a week - either way, 90 mins of non-personal, non-intensive classes isn't the same as heavy home / cultural exposure.

I have no idea how it is now, but 35+ years ago we had English, Irish and French everyday and a double class of each once a week. And English, Irish plus a foreign language was mandatory for university entry. And all civil service and local governments work required English and Irish. So building a career with just English was not really much of an option.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	I have no idea how it is now, but 35+ years ago we had English, Irish and French everyday and a double class of each once a week. And English, Irish plus a foreign language was mandatory for university entry. And all civil service and local governments work required English and Irish. So building a career with just English was not really much of an option.

This does confirm that teaching in England is very poor where foreign languages are concerned, if the Irish schools can get do it there is really no excuse. drum roll over to you Rufus........

[Blueangel]

I've heard that the new Star Wars film isn't quite as good as it could have been. Drum roll...... over to you FMF

[curley]

	Quote:	Blueangel
	I've heard that the new Star Wars film isn't quite as good as it could have been. Drum roll...... over to you FMF

The christmas video clip of the Bernese police is NOT the new Star Wars film.

Just thought I'd mention that.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Where you claim to quote or refer, please do so in a way that doesn't represent it. Presenting two words out of multiple sentences as a quote may make you feel smart but in reality you risk coming across as the exact opposite. Pease provide the exact part you do refer to. Here's the start of the clip:

Er.... thanks for the unnecessary snark, I'm sure. What on earth is that all about FFS? Rude.


I was referring to the original intention of the Tories recruiting more nurses, not quoting from the clip. I don't get all my political news from Twitter.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages? wow the standard required must have dropped since I did O levels! Rufus liked your post so I guess it must be true

No. They don't. I was agreeing with the sentiment. You really are scraping the barrel. You do seem alarmingly desperate for my attention. How weird.

It's clear you don't know what you're talking about regarding state education. Also, I'm not an MFL teacher, nor do I write education policy. Take it up with your beloved Tories. They're the ones that cocked it all up.

I think it is very safe to say that standards are quite different from when you were at your school.


StirB: Re MFL teaching... it varies depending on timetables but there will be 2-3 hours a week of MFL, similar to history, geography, technology, art and PE provision, more than RE, less than the core subjects. Approx 25 -30 lessons per week across all subjects all in, depending on how long each individual lesson is as it can vary quite a bit.

	Quote:
	StirB: Re MFL teaching... it varies depending on timetables but there will be 2-3 hours a week of MFL, similar to history, geography, technology, art and PE provision, more than RE, less than the core subjects. Approx 25 -30 lessons per week across all subjects all in, depending on how long each individual lessons are as it can vary.

Good news! So it may take as few as 111 years of being in school to master a language

	Quote:
	Good news! So it may take as few as 111 years of being in school to master a language

Exactly. Hardly any time at all.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Do kids only get 45 mins a week of a foreign languages?

They have the same amount as we had when we were at school although I believe they have the option to drop foreign languages before GSCE these days. That wasn’t an option for us, we had to do at least one foreign language up to o’level.

I passed o’ level French but I wouldn’t say that gave me the ability to really speak French. It takes a lot more than a couple of lessons a week and a piece of paper to be able to speak a language. Exposure is a much bigger factor than teaching hours.

The French are no better at speaking foreign languages than the brits are.