View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen? |
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union
|    | 49 | 23.11% |
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU
|    | 68 | 32.08% |
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK
|    | 22 | 10.38% |
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing
|    | 23 | 10.85% |
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us
|    | 17 | 8.02% |
I don't really care
|    | 33 | 15.57% |  | | | 
24.02.2016, 22:07
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,722
Groaned at 386 Times in 298 Posts
Thanked 16,658 Times in 9,409 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in
My feeling is Britain's never been that happy being a member of the EU. I think we were okay-ish with the idea of a common market which we decided to join, but have never really considered ourselves to be part of Europe. We're an island nation, apart from the mainland and that's the way we like it. The increasing closeness that seems to be coming out of Brussels is against our nature.
The other problem too is the lack of coverage of what happens in the European parliament. Yes, we've got some MEP's, but apart from Farage can you name any? (No Wiki-ing!) Do we hear anything in the news about their doings in the Parliament, what bills are being tabled, what decisions are being made by our elected representatives that will affect us? I don't know for sure but believe there's more coverage in other EU countries and that makes them feel more involved in the whole EU idea. We hear nothing, apart from election time and have no idea or interest in what's going on there. We feel we're on the fringe of Europe literally and figuratively and would rather not bother any more, so let's get out while we have the chance.
| 
25.02.2016, 09:23
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | ouch!
Taken from the Telegraph - Guy Verhofstadt, the leader of the liberal bloc who is an old-school believer in the United States of Europe and is allied to the Lib Dems, says
"I may not know the result of the referendum, but I am sure this will not reunite the Tories. Because it is now about personal ambitions of two men. A glorified cockfight. With Boris Johnson challenging David Cameron." He goes on: "It's "totally bonkers".
"It is pathetic for Britain. The Pound is rapidly falling. The unity of the UK is being threatened. And their American cousins say 'stop it', we will not make a trade deal with you outside the Union. The ‘special relationship’ between UK and the US is not so special any more. "
He warns there will be no new renegotiation after a "no" vote and that a vote to leave would "only help people like Vladimir Putin and Bashar Al-Assad".
"Those who stand to lose the most from this referendum are ordinary British citizens. They see their currency endangered, their country alienated from the US, their Great Britain transformed into nothing more than little England." | | | | | Who cares what this dice toothed shitpuffin has to say? He just loves the EU so much because it gives relevance to his country, which would only be known for chocolate and Jean Claude Van Damme otherwise.
He's just scare mongering. The USA would make a deal with Britain as would the rest of Europe. Little England he says? I'll take that. Far better than insignificant Belgium.
The EU is finished. Brexit or no Brexit, it won't be around in 10 years time. A combination of the economic crisis it faces, and the migrant crisis will see to that. As soon as Schengen gets scrapped, the Euro becomes pointless. Brexit would just hasten this process. Denmark would go, then Holland, then maybe a few eastern European states until all that's left is Germany supporting Club Med.
| This user would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
25.02.2016, 09:29
|  | RIP | | Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in
Loz, you sound just like Guy Verhofstadt
There really is little difference, absolutely no substance, where do you get such ridiculous ideas?
| 
25.02.2016, 10:10
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 12,314
Groaned at 200 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 19,913 Times in 8,233 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in
Bah who in their right minds would listen to a twerp like Guy Verhofstadt.
| 
25.02.2016, 11:18
|  | Senior Member | | Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | As soon as Schengen gets scrapped, the Euro becomes pointless. | | | | | Ummm ... WHY?
| 
25.02.2016, 11:42
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Ummm ... WHY? | | | | | I'll let Supreme Leader Junker answer that one for you: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...schengen-fails https://euobserver.com/migration/131265 | Quote: | |  | | | Loz, you sound just like Guy Verhofstadt
There really is little difference, absolutely no substance, where do you get such ridiculous ideas? | | | | | The difference is I'm not an EU politicians. I spout my opinions on internet forums. And, unlike mole rat Verhofstadt, there is reason behind what I say.
| 
25.02.2016, 12:40
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,986
Groaned at 240 Times in 203 Posts
Thanked 23,068 Times in 9,798 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Who cares what this dice toothed shitpuffin has to say? He just loves the EU so much because it gives relevance to his country, which would only be known for chocolate and Jean Claude Van Damme otherwise. | | | | | I thought you were going to mention Dutroux.
But that's unfair as actually I like Belgium a lot, and it's not the Belgians' fault that the EU is out of control. | Quote: | |  | | | He's just scare mongering. The USA would make a deal with Britain as would the rest of Europe. Little England he says? I'll take that. Far better than insignificant Belgium. | | | | | Scaremongering, and bullying. When Dubya Bush said "if you're not with us you're against us" there was widespread hissing among the liberal establishment. Where is that indignation now? | Quote: | |  | | | The EU is finished. Brexit or no Brexit, it won't be around in 10 years time. A combination of the economic crisis it faces, and the migrant crisis will see to that. As soon as Schengen gets scrapped, the Euro becomes pointless. Brexit would just hasten this process. Denmark would go, then Holland, then maybe a few eastern European states until all that's left is Germany supporting Club Med. | | | | | Germany is really doing everything in its power right now to lose as many allies as possible. Their treatment of Hungary and Poland is totally insensitive for example, and Merkel isn't too popular in Greece or Spain either. But its not stopping there as even the Dutch are beginning to get fed up with Germany. Germany seems to have lost track of Europe being about all of us together and thinks its all about everybody doing things the Germany way or b#ggering off..
Germany totally fails to understand that for many European nations, the image of a harsh, bullying and intolerant Germany wakes very unpleasant memories.
| This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
25.02.2016, 14:17
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | But that's unfair as actually I like Belgium a lot, and it's not the Belgians' fault that the EU is out of control. | | | | | I've nothing against the Belgians, just against politicians of the Low Countries when they make thinly veiled attacks on the UK based around their own insecurity over the EU's strength.
Another example, Holland PM Mark Rutte, last year he said exit from the EU would mean the UK became: “a mid-sized economy in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, in neither America nor Europe.”
I'd HAPPILY take that.
| This user would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
25.02.2016, 15:14
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hamburg, Deutschland
Posts: 626
Groaned at 41 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 786 Times in 448 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | I've nothing against the Belgians, just against politicians of the Low Countries when they make thinly veiled attacks on the UK based around their own insecurity over the EU's strength.
Another example, Holland PM Mark Rutte, last year he said exit from the EU would mean the UK became: “a mid-sized economy in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, in neither America nor Europe.”
I'd HAPPILY take that. | | | | | You'd happily take that and move there or take that from your apartment in Zurich? | The following 2 users would like to thank lewton for this useful post: | | 
25.02.2016, 20:19
|  | Senior Member | | Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | | I ask you why you think the end of Schengen and the Euro ending are related, and your "reason" is that JUNCKER says so?
Then in the next line you claim to differentiate yourself from a EU politician since there is reason behind what you say? But didn`t you just cite one as a "reason"?
I think supreme leader Juncker is just fearmongering to stave off the inevitable changes coming in the Schengen accords as a result of the migrant crisis, by linking it to the Euro.
So despite the amazing "reason" you have provided I don`t think additional checks at borders will do one damn thing that affects the Euro. Most EU countries, including those don`t use the Euro, anyway have visa free travel to one another irrespective of Schengen.
| 
25.02.2016, 20:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,278
Groaned at 204 Times in 161 Posts
Thanked 6,917 Times in 3,093 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | The EU is finished. Brexit or no Brexit, it won't be around in 10 years time. | | | | | Look we've been hear those kind of statements for the past 40 years and yet it is still there. The fact is that the EU has been severely tested over that last several years and it has not come a part as you seem to wish. And I seriously doubt if it will in the next decade either. If anything the Euro Group will strengthen in the coming years and there may well be two tier membership only time will tell.
| 
25.02.2016, 23:35
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | I ask you why you think the end of Schengen and the Euro ending are related, and your "reason" is that JUNCKER says so?  | | | | | He's not wrong though. What would be the point in a single currency if the borders are shut? | Quote: | |  | | | Look we've been hear those kind of statements for the past 40 years and yet it is still there. The fact is that the EU has been severely tested over that last several years and it has not come a part as you seem to wish. And I seriously doubt if it will in the next decade either. If anything the Euro Group will strengthen in the coming years and there may well be two tier membership only time will tell. | | | | | I'm sure the same was said about the Roman Empire. Greece recalled their ambassador from Austria over the migrant crisis today. A meeting was held between the Balkan states without an EU invitation to discuss the same thing. The cracks are already there, Europe as we know it is finished.
| 
25.02.2016, 23:54
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,837
Groaned at 434 Times in 375 Posts
Thanked 18,152 Times in 9,656 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | He's not wrong though. What would be the point in a single currency if the borders are shut?
I'm sure the same was said about the Roman Empire. Greece recalled their ambassador from Austria over the migrant crisis today. A meeting was held between the Balkan states without an EU invitation to discuss the same thing. The cracks are already there, Europe as we know it is finished. | | | | | "What would be the point in a single currency if the borders are shut? " But they are not shut? People with the correct documents pass through as usual.
| 
26.02.2016, 00:01
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Look we've been hear those kind of statements for the past 40 years and yet it is still there. The fact is that the EU has been severely tested over that last several years and it has not come a part as you seem to wish. And I seriously doubt if it will in the next decade either. If anything the Euro Group will strengthen in the coming years and there may well be two tier membership only time will tell. | | | | | Right on cue. Read and understand, this could happen. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/i...tain-to-leave/ | 
26.02.2016, 10:46
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,275
Groaned at 403 Times in 304 Posts
Thanked 10,787 Times in 5,680 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | He's not wrong though. What would be the point in a single currency if the borders are shut?
I'm sure the same was said about the Roman Empire. Greece recalled their ambassador from Austria over the migrant crisis today. A meeting was held between the Balkan states without an EU invitation to discuss the same thing. The cracks are already there, Europe as we know it is finished. | | | | | Even with closed borders, cross-border business will keep being done. With multiple currencies this entails currency risk, a risk not present within a single-currency area. Every risk (covering it, rather) increases costs.
Implementing Just-In-Time with cross-border supply lines would suffer a major blow from closing borders as it can be no longer assumed that spare parts and urgent deliveries won't need to wait at the border. This increases risk of extended downtimes, which in turn increases costs, which of course must be paid by each of us.
Schengen devoloped largely independent of the Euro (which in turn was introduced 1999/2001 IIRC). Schengen started in 1985, the base of todays Schengen became effective 1995 in the form of the Schengen Convention and wasn't incorporated into EU law until in 1997, before which time Schengen development happened outside of EU (EWU then) structures and institutions.
While Schengen and a common currency reinforce one anothers' effects Junckers statement makes no sense.
| This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post: | | 
26.02.2016, 11:30
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Basel
Posts: 14,189
Groaned at 275 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 17,504 Times in 7,404 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | He's not wrong though. What would be the point in a single currency if the borders are shut? | | | | | There's no point to the single currency even if borders are open.
Even at the time, it was known to make no economic sense. It was purely a step towards fiscal union, but as the Greece crisis showed, countries such as Germany were not really prepared to be in a fiscal union with Greece and accept all the economic downsides that would come with it.
| This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post: | | 
26.02.2016, 11:31
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in
I remember a group of German businessmen coming to speak to our German studying 6th Formers, via the Chamber of Commerce (in the UK) - about the value of learning German.
And the message was clear- 'we will speak perfect English to sell to YOU - but if you want to persuade us to buy YOUR (British) products rather than someone else's - we do expect you to do this in German'. I think the same will apply if the UK comes out of Europe. Europe will continue to want to SELL TO THE UK, but not necessarily to BUY FROM IT.
| The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
27.02.2016, 05:05
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,889
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: |  | | | I remember a group of German businessmen coming to speak to our German studying 6th Formers, via the Chamber of Commerce (in the UK) - about the value of learning German.
And the message was clear- 'we will speak perfect English to sell to YOU - but if you want to persuade us to buy YOUR (British) products rather than someone else's - we do expect you to do this in German'. I think the same will apply if the UK comes out of Europe. Europe will continue to want to SELL TO THE UK, but not necessarily to BUY FROM IT. | | | | | Bravo!
The industry I come from would collapse without it's European multi-lingual staff because British schools simply don't churn out candidates who are fluent in anything other than English, and some are barely that.
In one of our offices, of 115 staff, only 6 were fluent in a second language, 5 of whom were European migrants. In my last office, one of the teams had about 80% multi-lingual staff, the vast majority of whom were European migrants.
When I think that my grandfather spoke 6 languages, my great-uncle 16 languages and dialects, and my OH 5 languages (3 of them completely fluently), I'm ashamed that I only speak one fluently and can get by in a further 4.
Does anyone see any sign of the government investing in languages at school level?
I'm utterly convinced that leaving the EU would be a huge step backwards for the UK on so many levels that it beggars belief that anyone would consider it. Isolation is exactly that.
You can't change something and have a say if you're not even at the table.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post: | | 
27.02.2016, 14:43
| Junior Member | | Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Zug
Posts: 90
Groaned at 22 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 491 Times in 262 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | Bravo!
The industry I come from would collapse without it's European multi-lingual staff because British schools simply don't churn out candidates who are fluent in anything other than English, and some are barely that.
In one of our offices, of 115 staff, only 6 were fluent in a second language, 5 of whom were European migrants. In my last office, one of the teams had about 80% multi-lingual staff, the vast majority of whom were European migrants.
When I think that my grandfather spoke 6 languages, my great-uncle 16 languages and dialects, and my OH 5 languages (3 of them completely fluently), I'm ashamed that I only speak one fluently and can get by in a further 4.
Does anyone see any sign of the government investing in languages at school level?
I'm utterly convinced that leaving the EU would be a huge step backwards for the UK on so many levels that it beggars belief that anyone would consider it. Isolation is exactly that.
You can't change something and have a say if you're not even at the table. | | | | | I don't have the same level of concern with your valid point re language skills. There's nothing stopping a post-Brexit UK from allowing in non-UK workers with foreign language skills. The EU will not ban such workers from emigrating.
| 
27.02.2016, 15:07
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,837
Groaned at 434 Times in 375 Posts
Thanked 18,152 Times in 9,656 Posts
| | Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in | Quote: | |  | | | I think FMOP is a red herring. I think the most likely scenarios would be that the UK would still have the same FMOP obligations, in fact all the obligations under acquis communautaire.
An alternative would be to push for a FTA with the EU - though I remain sceptical as to whether this would leave the UK in a better position than if it were in the single market. I think FTA is the position advocated by UKIP.
To be honest, the whole sorry Brexit issue just shows what a pigs ear the UK has made of the EU. It has totally failed to push through a liberalisation of the market for services which would be of great benefit to the UK (and would be unlikely to do so outside the single market) and that idiot Tony Blair to rub salt in the wound gave up part of the rebate and got nothing in return losing over £10bn just in the first few years. On top of that we agreed to QMV and lost veto powers. Were our politicians on drugs when they destroyed our power and negotiating position in the EU? | | | | | The elephant in the room is the single common market with common standards. If Britain votes to leave then it will be very hard plus take a very long time to find a decent replacement trading deal for our exports.
Take a look at the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) which is one of the most ambitious free trade agreements ever. So for those who think the EU takes away UK sovereignty look at TPP clauses like "it paves the way for companies to sue governments that change policy on, say, health and education to favour state-provided services".
Plus it took 7 years to negotiate | This user would like to thank marton for this useful post: | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (0 members and 12 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:58. | |