The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Not facts. London isn't the entirety of the UK. What on earth have my friends got to do with anything? Or are you making assumptions? You know nothing. If people are not paid enough and food prices continue to rise they will struggle. Circumstances change. Large rise and minimum wage are a contradiction in terms. I'm guessing you've never struggled.

Yorkshire had the largest decline https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...me-in-a-decade
Whatever I say, you respond that everybody you know says differently, so natural to assume that you would not get any rise that everybody else gets

Typical UK renter spends 31% of NET income so less than the limit in CH where 30% of gross income is assumed to the most you can afford. Of course the forecasters thought rents would rise over the period. With the mass exodus of EU passport holders, one would expect rent to fall substantially.

Who is making assumptions now?

	Quote:	Chuff
	Well, you are both kind of right. Rents did decrease in 2018 but now look to be rising again https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...me-in-a-decade .

The article you linked claimed rents fell in 2018. "Rents across Britain fell in 2018 for the first time in a decade, offering relief for tenants after years of inflation-busting rises." How does that make Rufusb 'kind of right'

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Things are materially getting worse. https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/ch...ts-and-figures 30% of children (4.1m) were in poverty in 2017/18. This is expected to rise to 5.2m by 2022. You can fanny about with minimum wage claims, employment claims and the health of the economy claims, but when you boil it down, it really isn't good enough.

The definition of poverty has changed somewhat in my lifetime. I suspect if you went back to 1960 definition the No's would have significantly fallen as a percentage of the population.

43% of families with 3 or MORE children, thats being very greedy average family has 1.7 children. You don't need to be a genius to work out if you have twice as many children as other people you may have financial issues. How is mass breading a problem of the government, contraception is free in the UK

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The definition of poverty has changed somewhat in my lifetime. I suspect if you went back to 1960 definition the No's would have significantly fallen as a percentage of the population. 43% of families with 3 or MORE children, thats being very greedy average family has 1.7 children. You don't need to be a genius to work out if you have twice as many children as other people you may have financial issues. How is mass breading a problem of the government, contraception is free in the UK

Definition of child poverty remains the same, though.

And you clearly have no idea what it means.

What is "mass breading"? Giving out loaves, Jesus-style?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The definition of poverty has changed somewhat in my lifetime. I suspect if you went back to 1960 definition the No's would have significantly fallen as a percentage of the population. 43% of families with 3 or MORE children, thats being very greedy average family has 1.7 children. You don't need to be a genius to work out if you have twice as many children as other people you may have financial issues. How is mass breading a problem of the government, contraception is free in the UK

Definition is irrelevant as long as metrics are the same throughout the study i sent you. They used the same definition every year, so it’s clear it is getting worse, much worse.

	Quote:
	What is "mass breading"? Giving out loaves, Jesus-style?

Isn‘t it what they do in a fish and chip factory?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Yorkshire had the largest decline https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...me-in-a-decade Whatever I say, you respond that everybody you know says differently, so natural to assume that you would not get any rise that everybody else gets Typical UK renter spends 31% of NET income so less than the limit in CH where 30% of gross income is assumed to the most you can afford. Of course the forecasters thought rents would rise over the period. With the mass exodus of EU passport holders, one would expect rent to fall substantially. Who is making assumptions now? The article you linked claimed rents fell in 2018. "Rents across Britain fell in 2018 for the first time in a decade, offering relief for tenants after years of inflation-busting rises." How does that make Rufusb 'kind of right'

Not me, Sandgrounder.


I'm not disputing the rise, just its size. Folk I know earn a vast range of salaries. Your non-point is?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The definition of poverty has changed somewhat in my lifetime. I suspect if you went back to 1960 definition the No's would have significantly fallen as a percentage of the population. 43% of families with 3 or MORE children, thats being very greedy average family has 1.7 children. You don't need to be a genius to work out if you have twice as many children as other people you may have financial issues. How is mass breading a problem of the government, contraception is free in the UK

Over 3 million children live in poverty - that is in households with less than 60% of the median wage.

Also, your trolling has reached new lows. I take it you don't have kids.

	Quote:
	Definition is irrelevant as long as metrics are the same throughout the study i sent you. They used the same definition every year, so it’s clear it is getting worse, much worse.

This.

[Chuff]

	Quote:
	Also, your trolling has reached new lows.

You should know by now that FMF isn't trolling and he usually means what he says even if it is generally bordering on sociopathic.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Over 3 million children live in poverty - that is in households with less than 60% of the median wage. .

If everybody's salary increased 10 fold tomorrow, the same no of children would be in poverty. The definition is absurd.

	Quote:	Chuff
	You should know by now that FMF isn't trolling and he usually means what he says even if it is generally bordering on sociopathic.

Pot calling the kettle black

[marton]

	Quote:
	What is "mass breading"? Giving out loaves, Jesus-style?

	Quote:
	Isn‘t it what they do in a fish and chip factory?

Nah! Fish fingers factory

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	Over 3 million children live in poverty - that is in households with less than 60% of the median wage.

Isn't the official term low income?
Income without considering cost doesn't say anything about poor or rich.

[Sky]

	Quote:
	Bottom line is that the economy on the ground in the UK is poor and getting worse.

So so true

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Bottom line is the UK's economy is stronger than Germany's, food for thought. People have too much debt at high interest rates, they have been living above their means for years, thats why they have less disposable income.

People have no idea how the high interest rate of a loan will affect them when they are in desperate need. Then they get sucked into a horrible vicious circle of debt because they cannot even afford the interest rate. Those outrageous high interest rates should be forbidden.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Rents have been falling in London (...) Wages have risen in the UK, there is about to be a large rise in min wage (...) If people have more kids than they can afford, then clearly they will struggle.

Wages have risen? You must be joking.
Take a journey through the North and the Midlands and truly see what struggle and poverty means.

There are far too many children living below the poverty line and it shocks me that some do not get a meal when school is out.

Please put all the stats aside and please truly explain how Brexit will aid the vulnerable and the poor.
I genuinely would like to understand as a non-British person.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	If everybody's salary increased 10 fold tomorrow, the same no of children would be in poverty. The definition is absurd.

No but if salaries increased appropriately then FEWER children would be in poverty.

As Sky says above, nobody has been able thus far to say in any way how Brexit will be of benefit to the average man on the street in the UK.

A squillion pages of this thread still hasn’t named one generally available advantage to the majority of the population post Brexit which will materially improve their lives.

Not. One. Example.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Rents have been falling in London, no trolling just facts that don’t fit your agenda. Wages have risen in the UK, there is about to be a large rise in min wage, clearly this does not apply to your friends If people have more kids than they can afford, then clearly they will struggle.

Rents fell in 2018 but in every other recent year increased.

Including 2019 (at least up to September).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-by-region-uk/

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	No but if salaries increased appropriately then FEWER children would be in poverty.

The same no would be in poverty as the median wage would increase.

Communism is Clearly the solution nobody would be 60% below median wage & so no poverty. Labour wanted to tax the better off, this would reduce the median take home wage thus reducing poverty at a stroke without giving anyone any extra money.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The same no would be in poverty as the median wage would increase. Communism is Clearly the solution nobody would be 60% below median wage & so no poverty. Labour wanted to tax the better off, this would reduce the median take home wage thus reducing poverty at a stroke without giving anyone any extra money.

Paying great swathes of the population currently working in the NHS, teaching, etc., a livable wage would reduce the number of at least their kids living in poverty. Much simpler and realistic solution. It's not difficult, and you don't even need to offer drama-llama outbursts about communism, either.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Sky
	Please put all the stats aside and please truly explain how Brexit will aid the vulnerable and the poor. I genuinely would like to understand as a non-British person.

How has being a member of the EU helped the vulnerable and the poor? Perhaps the EU membership has little to with people being vulnerable and poor?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Paying great swathes of the population currently working in the NHS, teaching, etc., a livable wage would reduce the number of at least their kids living in poverty. Much simpler and realistic solution. It's not difficult, and you don't even need to offer drama-llama outbursts about communism, either.

I would argue that teachers are paid a living wage as they earn more than twice the min wage.

Increasing pay will increase the median wage, so although the kids will have more money, the no in poverty will remain relatively the same. If poverty is based on the median wage, then reducing the median wage is the way to reduce poverty.

If poverty was based on absolutes such as can people afford 1 hot meal a day & have a roof over their head, then increasing minimum pay would indeed reduce poverty, but that is not poverty in todays definition.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	...but that is not poverty in today's definition.

So, enlighten us to the very modern definition?

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	If poverty was based on absolutes such as can people afford 1 hot meal a day & have a roof over their head, then increasing minimum pay would indeed reduce poverty, but that is not poverty in todays definition.

There are two measures.

Relative poverty (all stats above) and absolute poverty which uses income minus housing costs vs 2011 median income - so clearly if salaries were to go up tenfold, this would all but eliminate absolute poverty.

See here:

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty...s-and-figures/

Absolute poverty in the UK has been on the increase since 2014 and there will be an additional 200,000 children in poverty from 2019 (graphs up to 2018 only) which will take it to record levels.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	So, enlighten us to the very modern definition?

I was relying on what RufusB said as fact, are you saying she is wrong?