The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I was relying on what RufusB said as fact, are you saying she is wrong?

I was asking for your definition of modern poverty, as you seem incapable of accepting any other definitions.

I take it from that dodge you're not prepared to provide a definition, though.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	I was asking for your definition of modern poverty, as you seem incapable of accepting any other definitions. I take it from that dodge you're not prepared to provide a definition, though.

If you look at India 70% of the population live on $2 a day, that is clearly poverty.
I would argue that more than 50% of those not in poverty in India have a far worse standard of living than those in poverty in the UK, which is why I support a charity that helps with children poverty in India & Africa.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	If you look at India 70% of the population live on $2 a day, that is clearly poverty. I would argue that more than 50% of those not in poverty in India have a far worse standard of living than those in poverty in the UK, which is why I support a charity that helps with children poverty in India & Africa.

You don't need to define poverty in India. Just YOUR definition of what classes as poverty in the UK.

Oh, and for a bonus question, given the topic of the thread - how you think Brexit will resolve this.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	You don't need to define poverty in India. Just YOUR definition of what classes as poverty in the UK. Oh, and for a bonus question, given the topic of the thread - how you think Brexit will resolve this.

Yes FMF, show us that you are worth that Nobel Prize

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Oh, and for a bonus question, given the topic of the thread - how you think Brexit will resolve this.

All these people are in poverty & we joined the Common Market in 1973! Clearly the EU has not prevented this situation, so staying a member is hardly a way of solving the issue.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	All these people are in poverty & we joined the Common Market in 1973! Clearly the EU has not prevented this situation, so staying a member is hardly a way of solving the issue.

Common Market is not the EU, though is it? Your answer doesn't make sense or is even relevant to my question. Never mind, just leave it...


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sooo, back to Brexit.

Seems to be an endless battalion of angry, insular, ill-informed people, doesn't it?

Anne Widdecombe.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:
	So, enlighten us to the very modern definition?

Lowest 10%

Tom

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I would argue that teachers are paid a living wage as they earn more than twice the min wage. Increasing pay will increase the median wage, so although the kids will have more money, the no in poverty will remain relatively the same. If poverty is based on the median wage, then reducing the median wage is the way to reduce poverty. If poverty was based on absolutes such as can people afford 1 hot meal a day & have a roof over their head, then increasing minimum pay would indeed reduce poverty, but that is not poverty in todays definition.

What is poverty by today's definition? You don't seem to like the one I found and understood to be accurate because you are greasing the goal posts, so enlighten us.

Teachers are decently paid, it's true, but NQTs are on just over 24k and it can take a long time, especially now, to get over the 30 - 36k mark which is, now apparently the range of the average UK full time salary now. I'd say only about 40% staff in an average school are on more : dept heads and SLT. Is a total guess though. Just thinking of my last dept /school and extrapolating.

Someone did the maths once: it's about 17p per hour per kid. Less if you factor in a 50 plus hour week.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I was relying on what RufusB said as fact, are you saying she is wrong?

Could be, but I don't think is too far off. Might have been 2019 data I found. Your point?

	Quote:
	Common Market is not the EU, though is it? Your answer doesn't make sense or is even relevant to my question. Never mind, just leave it... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sooo, back to Brexit. Seems to be an endless battalion of angry, insular, ill-informed people, doesn't it? Anne Widdecombe.

This.

	Quote:	st2lemans
	Lowest 10% Tom

But it doesn't define poverty, does it? It's a statistic.

The point I am trying to make is what characteristics define a person in poverty.

FMF is trying to prove some point or other that child poverty is different now to poverty in the 50s or pre-Common Market or pre-EU or whatever criteria (it keeps changing).

I'm just trying to find out what his definition is.

[RufusB]

	Quote:
	But it doesn't define poverty, does it? It's a statistic. The point I am trying to make is what characteristics define a person in poverty. FMF is trying to prove some point or other that child poverty is different now to poverty in the 50s or pre-Common Market or pre-EU or whatever criteria (it keeps changing). I'm just trying to find out what his definition is.

Not being able to afford three meals a day, incl. One hot one is a factor.

He's not proving anything other than his narrow entitled world view. And lack of a real world job with actual people.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	RufusB
	Teachers are decently paid, it's true, but NQTs are on just over 24k and it can take a long time, especially now, to get over the 30 - 36k mark which is, now apparently the range of the average UK full time salary now. I'd say only about 40% staff in an average school are on more : dept heads and SLT. Is a total guess though. Just thinking of my last dept /school and extrapolating. .

UK Min wage £8.21 x 40 x 52 = £17076.80, so NON QUALIFIED Teachers earn 40% more than min wage.
Teachers should not have been used as an example when discussing poverty, NHS do have plenty of min wage employees.
Academy head teachers can earn in excess of £150k with bonus

	Quote:	RufusB
	Not being able to afford three meals a day, incl. One hot one is a factor. He's not proving anything other than his narrow entitled world view. And lack of a real world job with actual people.

I don't eat 3 meals a day, it's not that unusual.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	But it doesn't define poverty, does it? It's a statistic. The point I am trying to make is what characteristics define a person in poverty. FMF is trying to prove some point or other that child poverty is different now to poverty in the 50s or pre-Common Market or pre-EU or whatever criteria (it keeps changing). I'm just trying to find out what his definition is.

This is the EU definition:

	Quote:
	People are said to be living in poverty if their income and resources are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living considered acceptable in the society in which they live. Because of their poverty they may experience multiple disadvantages through unemployment, low income, poor housing, inadequate health care and barriers to lifelong learning, culture, sport and recreation. They are often excluded and marginalized from par-ticipating in activities (economic, social and cultural) that are the norm for other people and their access to fundamental rights may be restricted.

The part in bold probably wasn't considered poverty in post-war 1950s.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I don't eat 3 meals a day, it's not that unusual.

I'd suggest it isn't really about quantity of food, rather quality of nutrition.

Can you afford to eat enough balanced food, in order that you stay healthy, grow to your potential size, can stay awake and mentally active during the day, etc.

Can you afford to put a roof over your (and your family's) head?

Can you afford basic sanitary items for you and your family?

If you lose your job, do you have any savings to fall back on to tide you over or will a month's rent bankrupt you?

Can you afford to travel to job interviews.

Etc etc

If you fall foul of any of these categories (as well as a host more of course), i'd say you are both relatively and absolutely poverty stricken.

EDIT: pretty similar to EU definition above.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	The part in bold probably wasn't considered poverty in post-war 1950s.

The bit before the part in bold probably wasn't considered poverty for Egyptian slaves. We generally hope that society progresses over time.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	The bit before the part in bold probably wasn't considered poverty for Egyptian slaves. We generally hope that society progresses over time.

Yes, but I didn't respond to that. I was referring to differences with the 1950s.

[marton]

	Quote:	RufusB
	What is poverty by today's definition? You don't seem to like the one I found and understood to be accurate because you are greasing the goal posts, so enlighten us. Teachers are decently paid, it's true, but NQTs are on just over 24k and it can take a long time, especially now, to get over the 30 - 36k mark which is, now apparently the range of the average UK full time salary now. I'd say only about 40% staff in an average school are on more : dept heads and SLT. Is a total guess though. Just thinking of my last dept /school and extrapolating. Someone did the maths once: it's about 17p per hour per kid. Less if you factor in a 50 plus hour week. Could be, but I don't think is too far off. Might have been 2019 data I found. Your point? This.

And then there is the horror of zero-hour contracts

[RufusB]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	UK Min wage £8.21 x 40 x 52 = £17076.80, so NON QUALIFIED Teachers earn 40% more than min wage. Teachers should not have been used as an example when discussing poverty, NHS do have plenty of min wage employees. Academy head teachers can earn in excess of £150k with bonus I don't eat 3 meals a day, it's not that unusual.

NQT is a newly qualified teacher. They are on c. 24 k i think. They won't get much more than min wage for the amount of hours worked per week when actual hours worked are added up. Non-qualified ones earn far less. And usually get paid for 25-30 hours per week, term time only. 8.21 x 30 x 39 = £9605.70.

You brought teaching salaries up, not me.

Agreed. Most admin and auxiliary staff in NHS are paid terribly.

They might be able to earn that in inner London Academies if they are a head of a chain. Unlikely otherwise, plus that is only one person per school. Thet rest will be on 24 - 38, roughly 10 other SLT will be c.50 k.

You might not eat 3 meals a day but then, contrary to a great deal of forum evidence to the contrary, you are not a child. That might be your most crassly idiotic comment yet.

I imagine you can also afford to heat your home and wash in hot water too.

Like others said, it's about nutrition.

[marton]

	Quote:
	The UK chancellor, Sajid Javid, said there would be no alignment with EU regulations once Britain’s exit from the European Union was made official.

A strong reaction from the auto industry who say that they cannot sell into the EU countries if the vehicles do not comply with EU regulations and running parallel production lines conforming to different regulations will cost billions. Similar reactions from other manufacturers.

[John William]

	Quote:	marton
	A strong reaction from the auto industry who say that they cannot sell into the EU countries if the vehicles do not comply with EU regulations and running parallel production lines conforming to different regulations will cost billions. Similar reactions from other manufacturers.

Yes but it's all change in Brexit Britain after she leaves the EU !! For a start there would be no need to
complete the drive for metrication and instead the UK will no doubt set her own standards with the
return of Imperial weights & measures with the British Pint once again reigning supreme.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	A strong reaction from the auto industry who say that they cannot sell into the EU countries if the vehicles do not comply with EU regulations and running parallel production lines conforming to different regulations will cost billions. Similar reactions from other manufacturers.

Doesn't this depend on in what respect regulations would differ?

Automobile manufacturers already today do adapt to local markets. In fact you can even customize quite a lot of stuff as an individual customer. This works because modern manufacturing methods make it easier, not more difficult, to produce multiple sub-variants down to individual orders on the same production line simultaneously.

The turkeys that voted for Christmas suddenly objecting to the heat of the oven...

https://twitter.com/june_mummery/sta...bulb-moment%2F