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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26421  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A free market works for both employers & employees.
Yes, BUT with a very very different bargaining leverage heavily skewed towards the employer. Sure, most of us, expats in CH, have it relatively good as by and large we are educated, well experience and lucky. This is not the case for the vast majority of employees worldwide and as much as I appreciate my own luck (seems you too, wish you all the best sincerely!) i see a coherent gainfully employed society as a public good. having odd jobs in the "sharing economy" ain't gonna cut it.

Btw, over the past probably 8-9 months the intensity of headhunters trying to recruit for the UK has increased substantially. In the beginning they used to try to convince me "it will all be ok", but recently even they seem a bit blue and usually after being cut off end up with "yes, i understand, we get that a lot"
Valid statistic? Surely not. But it certainly creates a certain impression in my mind about how many people are refusing to go to the UK and apparently the UK is having a hard time finding qualified people.
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  #26422  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I agree. In countries with strong employee protection, employers are reluctant to hire people because they know it's almost impossible to fire them.
Consequence is that there are many people on temp contracts, not able to get a mortgage etc and difficult to proceed in life, and it only protects the bad employees.
Yeah but in the case of the UK that happily massages the unemployment figures and people like BoJo trumpet that everyone is in work and rich AF.
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  #26423  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A free market works for both employers & employees.
And yet that is one of the BREXITEERS problems.... they voted to leave a single market with FMOP because others in the market were 'taking their jobs'
  #26424  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I worked for 30 years on what would now be described as zero hour contracts, only there was never a contract & I might work for 10 companies in any month.
This sounds like CH to me. The opposite of France. Which way will the independent UK more likely head?
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  #26425  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This sounds like CH to me. The opposite of France. Which way will the independent UK more likely head?
Employee protection legislation or the extent of it has nothing to do with EU membership. France, for instance, would be the same semi-socialist state in or outside of EU.

The British didn't need to get out of EU in order to change this system.
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  #26426  
Old 28.01.2020, 14:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Employee protection legislation or the extent of it has nothing to do with EU membership. France, for instance, would be the same semi-socialist state in or outside of EU.

The British didn't need to get out of EU in order to change this system.
Please stop confusing the anti-EU brigade.
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  #26427  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It is an insurance, as most things in CH. Paid in by people themselves. The conditions for "pay out" are tough. This un-entitlement mindset needs to exist in EU too, it mostly doesn't. Or not where the numbers bulk.

It is not seen as a safety net here.



Maybe it should be created, then. Small independent states have more chance to create small efficient systems.
The UK population isn't small, esp compared with CH.

I think there is very much a sense if entitlement in CH... in the sense that folk have paid in and therefore expect it. AFAIK .
  #26428  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This sounds like CH to me. The opposite of France. Which way will the independent UK more likely head?
Care to elaborate? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
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  #26429  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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4 weeks paid holiday, 14 weeks paid maternity leave, no minimum wage plus what has already been mentioned with regard to redundancies.

I should add, that I think workers rights in Switzerland are sufficient and in the UK they go too far. Certainly when one gets into the minefield of employment tribunals in the UK.
Spoken by someone who has likely never worked in a field where, for example, union support is vital.

I think you might have a different view if, for example, you'd worked for a company for over 30 years to find, due to mismanagement/gov't cock ups etc you suddenly didn't have the pension you had been paying into.

They aren't a minefield.
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  #26430  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I didn't say the EU was puppet master, I said that the argument that the UK should keep tied to the EU due to Workers or Human rights is laughable. Plus, if you think workers rights in the UK are bad, then check out what they are in Switzerland!
Said this many times before...I was a trade union rep from 1994-2003 and part of a team that rolled out the 1998 EU Working Time Directive after a week long training course with the DTI to ensure we fully understood the implications, impact, etc.... We conducted training and information sessions with groups of staff from every level of the workforce, including upper management. We also conducted review sessions periodically after the implementation to check how people were adapting to the regulations, and the feedback was 100% positive, even from upper management who said they were better able to predict and plan workforce availability for overtime, etc. Other levels of satff commented on how it almost eliminated bullying to do overtime, and they felt more in control of their work life balance and commitments.

Before it's implementation, a fair amount of the union workload was dealing with grievances from people who were being bullied into working huge amounts of overtime with short shift changes, and it eliminated staff being forced into working 16 shifts without a 48hr break during promotional periods, which was too common in our workplace.

If you find the protection of workers' rights laughable, it says a lot about you.

'What has the working time directive ever done for us?'
https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-in...battleground/#

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This isn't the case in the UK. There's a token gesture of Universal Credit or whatever it is now but that's it.
Last week, I was read about a vulnerable adult, Errol Graham, who starved to death after his Universal Credit was wrongly stopped by the DWP.

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...-his-benefits/

Add to that, the 14 weeks average wait time for new disability benefit PIP claims, and you have a truly diabolical state of affairs, and that's without linking to the recent articles about a Tory MP claiming that food banks are a good way of dealing with child poverty.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8727296.html
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  #26431  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think there is very much a sense if entitlement in CH... in the sense that folk have paid in and therefore expect it. AFAIK .
Whereas in the UK people expect benefits without ever paying anything into the system
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  #26432  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Spoken by someone who has likely never worked in a field where, for example, union support is vital.
.
Yes those Unions did a lot of good at British Leyland & in the coal mines, so much so that the population voted in Mrs Thatcher who pretty much destroyed the unions & the UK has been a better more successful country ever since.
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  #26433  
Old 28.01.2020, 15:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Soon to be be same goes for the UK too!

And me moving the goal posts? You're the one that brought up a whole host of other countries to try and back your very weak argument. You seem to make a habit of accusing others of what consistently you do yourself!

And the EU is poor at striking trade deals. Another example is that which hasn't yet been struck with Mercosur despite it being under negotiation for TWENTY years! Why? Not because of the Amazon, but because EU farmers are concerned with the prospect of cheap Latin American food landing on the market shelves.

It’s easy espouse the virtues of being part of a MASSIVE trading bloc, but membership is equally as detrimental to striking trade deals because one country within the bloc is always held hostage to every another country agreeing to what's is requested. It's why the Canada trade deal was almost killed off by Wallonia. Acting as a single country allows allows freedom to act in self interest and concentrate on economic sectors that really matter to that country. It's why Switzerland has been more successful in negotiating trade deals than the EU, or why Chile, who have free trade agreements covering most of the GDP of the globe, are more successful than Mercosur.

It's senseless discussion anyhow, the UK leaves on Friday. The UK will strike an agreement with the EU because they have to. No agreement and that could be the catalyst that finally pushes Germany into recession, starts another Euro crisis and brings the whole house of cards tumbling down. They wouldn't be so dumb as to risk that would they?! Maybe they would? Who knows!
Your long fact-free diatribe does not contain anything to support your claim that the EU is poor at striking trade deals.
Unless you claim Mercosur is the gold standard of trade deals?

You claim "It's why Switzerland has been more successful in negotiating trade deals than the EU" this despite the fact that EU has 40 free trade deals while Switzerland has only 30.

I am glad you recognise this discussion you started is senseless, do try harder.
  #26434  
Old 28.01.2020, 16:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Employee protection legislation or the extent of it has nothing to do with EU membership. France, for instance, would be the same semi-socialist state in or outside of EU.

The British didn't need to get out of EU in order to change this system.
It was certainly a factor in the public perception of Brussels though. I remember the furore at the time they were pushing the 'social chapter' through, confused as it was in many people's minds with the working time directive. It was seen as 'yet another' example of unnecessary interference by the EU, and represents much of the core anti-europe feelings still evident today.
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  #26435  
Old 28.01.2020, 16:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes those Unions did a lot of good at British Leyland & in the coal mines, so much so that the population voted in Mrs Thatcher who pretty much destroyed the unions & the UK has been a better more successful country ever since.
In your opinion.

I've belonged to a union for years. They do a lot of good.
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  #26436  
Old 28.01.2020, 18:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If you find the protection of workers' rights laughable, it says a lot about you.
I’ve never said that.
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  #26437  
Old 28.01.2020, 22:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I’ve never said that.
You most certainly gave that impression.
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  #26438  
Old 28.01.2020, 22:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I’ve never said that.
Quote:
...I said that the argument that the UK should keep tied to the EU due to Workers or Human rights is laughable.
https://www.englishforum.ch/internat...ml#post3141667

Never mind your short term memory deficit, being the kind, forgiving soul that I am, I'm buying you a gift. You even get to choose which of these you would like
https://shop.conservatives.com/colle...done-tea-towel
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  #26439  
Old 29.01.2020, 10:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

So to mark the UK's forthcoming Best-Before date of 31st January, there is a 12 quid tea-towel on offer.

TWELVE QUID FOR A TEA-TOWEL??


I wonder how much merch they would have shifted if they'd brought out a commemorative bog-roll..?
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  #26440  
Old 29.01.2020, 10:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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TWELVE QUID FOR A TEA-TOWEL?
I am sure in CH there are tea-towels on sale at similar or even higher prices!
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