The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	UK paid holiday is set at 5.6 weeks, EU paid holiday is set at 4 weeks. UK sick pay is set at 28 weeks, EU sick pay is not set at all. Minimum wage in the UK is set at £8.21, in the EU there is no set minimum wage. Maternity pay in the UK is currently 52 weeks (90% for 6 weeks £140 for 33 weeks), for the EU it's set at 14 weeks.

Apart from there being so much wrong with your list up there, are you saying that EU member states are FREE TO SET THEIR OWN RULES?? No! Surely not!!

But we were told that the EU diktats were cast in stone by faceless unelected bureaucrats.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	UK paid holiday is set at 5.6 weeks, EU paid holiday is set at 4 weeks. UK sick pay is set at 28 weeks, EU sick pay is not set at all. Minimum wage in the UK is set at £8.21, in the EU there is no set minimum wage. Maternity pay in the UK is currently 52 weeks (90% for 6 weeks £140 for 33 weeks), for the EU it's set at 14 weeks.

Bank holidays must be included. Agency workers didn't have these entitlements until the EU working time regulations came into effect.

Not everyone gets 5.6 weeks holiday. Sick pay entitlements have to be earned. Different employers have different rules. Some much better than the minimum above.

It's 39 weeks of statutory mat pay. Entitled to have 52 weeks off but the final 13 weeks are unpaid. Statutory mat pay is so poor few can afford to have the full 52. Some Occupational mat pay is, thankfully, better.

14 weeks is undoubtedly shit.

You do get 12 years of NI credits though in the UK so that's something.

But all of this is further proof that the demon EU isn't the puppet master some Brexiteers say it is.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Unfortunately this narrow minded attitude is partly the reason the EU is so poor at making trade deals. Trade deals shouldn’t be seen as a confrontation when trying to achieve something that is beneficial to both parties. It’s another good reason that the UK left, and will also be the reason the UK strikes more trade deals in the long term. The EU purely exists to thwart free trading capitalism and it’s this attitude that will eventually lead to its downfall.

The EU has 40 free trade deals with 70 countries, how many do you think they would have if they were not so "poor at making trade deals"?

Who do you think is "not poor" at making trade deals?
The US?; 14 deals with 20 countries.
Japan?; deals with 14 countries.
China?; has 16 free trade deals
South Korea?; has 16 free trade deals

[curley]

	Quote:	marton
	The EU has 40 free trade deals with 70 countries, how many do you think they would have if they were not so "poor at making trade deals"? Who do you think is "not poor" at making trade deals? The US?; 14 deals with 20 countries. Japan?; deals with 14 countries. China?; has 16 free trade deals South Korea?; has 16 free trade deals

14 deals with 20 countries?

	Quote:
	Apart from there being so much wrong with your list up there, are you saying that EU member states are FREE TO SET THEIR OWN RULES?? No! Surely not!! But we were told that the EU diktats were cast in stone by faceless unelected bureaucrats.

It's almost like people are unaware that the EU sets minimum standards, which countries are free to go above and beyond.

Or which countries leaving the EU are free to go below.

	Quote:	curley
	14 deals with 20 countries?

NAFTA or USCAM would be 1 deal with 3 countries (or 2 forrin countries).

You can have a more than bilateral deal - one deal with the EU would be 1 deal with 28 countries if you were so inclined to count it like that.

[marton]

	Quote:	curley
	14 deals with 20 countries?

Quote from the US Govt. dept responsible for dealing with free trade agreements.

[curley]

	Quote:	marton
	Quote from the US Govt. dept responsible for dealing with free trade agreements.

I count 19.

Never mind.

None with Switzerland?

[aSwissInTheUS]

	Quote:	curley
	None with Switzerland?

Nope. If you import from the US you will have to pay duty.

After the negotiaons failed in 2006
https://www.avenir-suisse.ch/roadmap-nach-amerika/
there is aperently a new one drawn up
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wef-bil...-deal/45508442

PS: Switzerland has 30 agreements with 40 partners https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/en/ho...sabkommen.html
which are, I do not know how many countries https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/en/ho...r_Schweiz.html

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	The EU has 40 free trade deals with 70 countries, how many do you think they would have if they were not so "poor at making trade deals"? Who do you think is "not poor" at making trade deals? The US?; 14 deals with 20 countries. Japan?; deals with 14 countries. China?; has 16 free trade deals South Korea?; has 16 free trade deals

You appear to show a severe misunderstanding between "value" and "number"! I could own 10 Opel Corsas, and they wouldn't have the same value as a Lamborghini! The GDP of all the countries with which Japan has free trade agreements with is larger than that of the EU, same goes for South Korea, same goes for Australia, same goes for Canada, same for goes for Switzerland! And soon to be the case for the UK!

It's similar logic to the people who think that the UK leaving the EU is just 1 of 28 member states leaving. Guess what, it isn't! The UK has the same GDP as the smallest 18 countries COMBINED!

The bottom line is the EU has been really poor at making trade deals with countries worth making trade deals with, like the US, China, India, Australia etc. basically because the EU is anti free trading capitalism and ultra protectionist.

[curley]

	Quote:	aSwissInTheUS
	Nope. If you import from the US you will have to pay duty. After the negotiaons failed in 2006 https://www.avenir-suisse.ch/roadmap-nach-amerika/ there is aperently a new one drawn up https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wef-bil...-deal/45508442 PS: Switzerland has 30 agreements with 40 partners https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/en/ho...sabkommen.html which are, I do not know how many countries https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/en/ho...r_Schweiz.html

Good info, thanks.

Maybe we should wait until the US has a decent president. What's an other four years.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You appear to show a severe misunderstanding between "value" and "number"! I could own 10 Opel Corsas, and they wouldn't have the same value as a Lamborghini! The GDP of all the countries with which Japan has free trade agreements with is larger than that of the EU, same goes for South Korea, same goes for Australia, same goes for Canada, same for goes for Switzerland! And soon to be the case for the UK! It's similar logic to the people who think that the UK leaving the EU is just 1 of 28 member states leaving. Guess what, it isn't! The UK has the same GDP as the smallest 18 countries COMBINED! The bottom line is the EU has been really poor at making trade deals with countries worth making trade deals with, like the US, China, India, Australia etc. basically because the EU is anti free trading capitalism and ultra protectionist.

Moving the goalposts again!
So now the EU is not poor at making free trade deals as you claimed, you are now claiming it is making these trade deals with the wrong countries.

How about turning this coin around and saying the US, China, India, Australia are really poor at making trade deals because they have failed to make a trade deal with the EU (the second largest world economy).
You know it takes two to tango

Of course, the GDP of all the countries with which Japan has free trade agreements (FTAs) is larger than that of the EU because one of those FTAs is with the EU (the second largest world economy). Same goes for South Korea, same goes for Canada, same goes for Switzerland

[Medea Fleecestealer]

This pretty much sums up my view of the EU.

"Mr Pugh says he "fully recognises there are MEPs with different political outlooks who are sad to be leaving" but, he says, the EU "has some real issues".

"However cynical I was about the EU before I got here, it is way worse than I thought," he says.

The Eurozone is a "disaster", he says, and MEPs in Brussels and Strasbourg "are very remote from their electorate". "

"And John Longworth, the former Brexit Party MEP turned Conservative, says that his time in the European Parliament has "reinforced" his view that the "whole set-up is bizarre, bureaucratic and wasteful"."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51140299

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	UK paid holiday is set at 5.6 weeks, EU paid holiday is set at 4 weeks.

UK includes public holidays. EU doesn't. Therefore the minimum for most EU countries is roughly 6 weeks. Only the Netherlands has a minimum less than the UK, by one day.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	UK sick pay is set at 28 weeks, EU sick pay is not set at all.

The UK has the worst sick pay of all EU countries.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Minimum wage in the UK is set at £8.21, in the EU there is no set minimum wage.

True. But planned from 2024.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Maternity pay in the UK is currently 52 weeks (90% for 6 weeks £140 for 33 weeks), for the EU it's set at 14 weeks.

"The UK is one of the worst places in Europe for paid parental leave..."
https://www.scotsman.com/read-this/t...urope-compare/

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Bank holidays must be included. Agency workers didn't have these entitlements until the EU working time regulations came into effect. Not everyone gets 5.6 weeks holiday. Sick pay entitlements have to be earned. Different employers have different rules. Some much better than the minimum above. It's 39 weeks of statutory mat pay. Entitled to have 52 weeks off but the final 13 weeks are unpaid. Statutory mat pay is so poor few can afford to have the full 52. Some Occupational mat pay is, thankfully, better. 14 weeks is undoubtedly shit. You do get 12 years of NI credits though in the UK so that's something. But all of this is further proof that the demon EU isn't the puppet master some Brexiteers say it is.

I didn't say the EU was puppet master, I said that the argument that the UK should keep tied to the EU due to Workers or Human rights is laughable. Plus, if you think workers rights in the UK are bad, then check out what they are in Switzerland!

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	Moving the goalposts again! So now the EU is not poor at making free trade deals as you claimed, you are now claiming it is making these trade deals with the wrong countries. How about turning this coin around and saying the US, China, India, Australia are really poor at making trade deals because they have failed to make a trade deal with the EU (the second largest world economy). You know it takes two to tango Of course, the GDP of all the countries with which Japan has free trade agreements (FTAs) is larger than that of the EU because one of those FTAs is with the EU (the second largest world economy). Same goes for South Korea, same goes for Canada, same goes for Switzerland

Soon to be be same goes for the UK too!

And me moving the goal posts? You're the one that brought up a whole host of other countries to try and back your very weak argument. You seem to make a habit of accusing others of what consistently you do yourself!

And the EU is poor at striking trade deals. Another example is that which hasn't yet been struck with Mercosur despite it being under negotiation for TWENTY years! Why? Not because of the Amazon, but because EU farmers are concerned with the prospect of cheap Latin American food landing on the market shelves.

It’s easy espouse the virtues of being part of a MASSIVE trading bloc, but membership is equally as detrimental to striking trade deals because one country within the bloc is always held hostage to every another country agreeing to what's is requested. It's why the Canada trade deal was almost killed off by Wallonia. Acting as a single country allows allows freedom to act in self interest and concentrate on economic sectors that really matter to that country. It's why Switzerland has been more successful in negotiating trade deals than the EU, or why Chile, who have free trade agreements covering most of the GDP of the globe, are more successful than Mercosur.

It's senseless discussion anyhow, the UK leaves on Friday. The UK will strike an agreement with the EU because they have to. No agreement and that could be the catalyst that finally pushes Germany into recession, starts another Euro crisis and brings the whole house of cards tumbling down. They wouldn't be so dumb as to risk that would they?! Maybe they would? Who knows!

[roegner]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I didn't say the EU was puppet master, I said that the argument that the UK should keep tied to the EU due to Workers or Human rights is laughable. Plus, if you think workers rights in the UK are bad, then check out what they are in Switzerland!

So what is so bad in Switzerland?? Only 4-5 weeks holidays? Well, it was voted down to increase that. A lot of other countries do not have 5-6 weeks holidays for everyone per year.


So what else?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	roegner
	So what is so bad in Switzerland?? Only 4-5 weeks holidays? Well, it was voted down to increase that. A lot of other countries do not have 5-6 weeks holidays for everyone per year. So what else?

Far worse conditions for employees who can be sacked at any time for any reason with no compensation other than their notice period.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Far worse conditions for employees who can be sacked at any time for any reason with no compensation other than their notice period.

That makes it easier for employers to hire people. I see this as an advantage.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It's senseless discussion anyhow, the UK leaves on Friday. The UK will strike an agreement with the EU because they have to. No agreement and that could be the catalyst that finally pushes Germany into recession, starts another Euro crisis and brings the whole house of cards tumbling down. They wouldn't be so dumb as to risk that would they?! Maybe they would? Who knows!

I think inadvertently you have shone a light on everything that is wrong with the Brexit mess. I know you fiercely oppose the EU but I think some of it has come about because of the material you prefer to read. You have grumbles about the EU so you only read the grumbly stuff that confirms all your fears and doubts.

From Friday, it'll be sink or swim for the UK and the UK alone. The EU will tick along nicely and will not allow a deal which threatens that.

You criticise the time that it has taken to strike deals elsewhere, but it's more than just agreeing to exchange "Latin American meat". There are standards to be upheld in farming, slaughter, treatment, packaging, employees, the list is endless. This is how it will be on all trade negotiations with the UK. The UK might have some kind of a headstart because it has been thus far producing goods and services to an EU standard but it will not be easy, especially if BoJo is full of his usual bravado with Dominic Cummings pulling the strings from behind.