The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	That makes it easier for employers to hire people. I see this as an advantage.

Sure, employee protection is actually bad for business's & ultimately workers, however the lefties won't thank this post.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Sure, employee protection is actually bad for business's & ultimately workers, however the lefties won't thank this post.

You forgot the other main benefit for us pseuds - we'll be able to get another raft of Dickensian workhouse novels.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Sure, employee protection is actually bad for business's & ultimately workers, however the lefties won't thank this post.

I imagine the swivel-eyed right wingers baulk at the level of unemployment benefit paid out in Switzerland, though.

Yes, you can make your employees redundant or fire them at will but there's a safety net.

This isn't the case in the UK. There's a token gesture of Universal Credit or whatever it is now but that's it.

You can't have it both ways.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	I imagine the swivel-eyed right wingers baulk at the level of unemployment benefit paid out in Switzerland, though.

It is an insurance, as most things in CH. Paid in by people themselves. The conditions for "pay out" are tough. This un-entitlement mindset needs to exist in EU too, it mostly doesn't. Or not where the numbers bulk.

It is not seen as a safety net here.

	Quote:
	This isn't the case in the UK.

Maybe it should be created, then. Small independent states have more chance to create small efficient systems.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Maybe it should be created, then. Small independent states have more chance to create small efficient systems.

Say that to commuters with a straight face.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It is an ansurance, as most things in CH. Paid in by people themselves. The conditions for "pay out" are tough. This un-entitlement mindset needs to exist in EU too, it doesn't. It is not seen as a safety net here.

The system exists and it works. Doesn't matter why or how or what. It exists.

The conditions for pay out are NOT tough. You have to look for a new job and simply prove it. People who find it "tough" are not simply not trying. There's even help with language, and other tools and courses to support job search so there really aren't any excuses. It is structured and, for the main part, fair.

Of course it's seen as a safety net because that's what it is. I think you are confusing it with "a lifestyle choice". People here don't see it as a "lifestyle choice", so don't be such a snob.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Maybe it should be created, then. Small independent states have more chance to create small efficient systems.

LOL! You are kidding, right? You think that now that the UK has Brexitised itself, it's going to make a whole new benefit system because it's not in the EU any more?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It is an insurance, as most things in CH. Paid in by people themselves. The conditions for "pay out" are tough. This un-entitlement mindset needs to exist in EU too, it mostly doesn't. Or not where the numbers bulk. It is not seen as a safety net here.

Nonsense, there is pretty much the same attitude all over Europe and in Switzerland when you are finished on unemployment benefits, you go on the social support if needed, just the same as everywhere else.

For example in Ireland, once you finish with unemployment benefits, you can apply for another schema which is based on financial needs.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	For example in Ireland, once you finish with unemployment benefits, you can apply for another schema which is based on financial needs.

Is that money repayable if the situation changes like in CH?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	roegner
	So what is so bad in Switzerland?? Only 4-5 weeks holidays? Well, it was voted down to increase that. A lot of other countries do not have 5-6 weeks holidays for everyone per year. So what else?

4 weeks paid holiday, 14 weeks paid maternity leave, no minimum wage plus what has already been mentioned with regard to redundancies.

I should add, that I think workers rights in Switzerland are sufficient and in the UK they go too far. Certainly when one gets into the minefield of employment tribunals in the UK.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I should add, that I think workers rights in Switzerland are sufficient and in the UK they go too far. Certainly when one gets into the minefield of employment tribunals in the UK.

You realise that you can take employers to court for similar reasons as in the UK, don't you?

The "employment tribunals" in the UK are not a minefield unless you are the one who has been touching up your secretary or holding KKK meetings in the office kitchen.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Sure, employee protection is actually bad for business's & ultimately workers, however the lefties won't thank this post.

You seem to see things only from the employer/business owner's perspective, and yourself only in that position.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	greenmount
	You seem to see things only from the employer/business owner's perspective, and yourself only in that position.

No a more flexible workplace can be exploited by workers by asking for more money or moving to where more money is offered. A free market works for both employers & employees.

I worked for 30 years on what would now be described as zero hour contracts, only there was never a contract & I might work for 10 companies in any month.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	No a more flexible workplace can be exploited by workers by asking for more money or moving to where more money is offered. A free market works for both employers & employees.

I agree. In countries with strong employee protection, employers are reluctant to hire people because they know it's almost impossible to fire them.
Consequence is that there are many people on temp contracts, not able to get a mortgage etc and difficult to proceed in life, and it only protects the bad employees.

[gaburko]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	A free market works for both employers & employees.

Yes, BUT with a very very different bargaining leverage heavily skewed towards the employer. Sure, most of us, expats in CH, have it relatively good as by and large we are educated, well experience and lucky. This is not the case for the vast majority of employees worldwide and as much as I appreciate my own luck (seems you too, wish you all the best sincerely!) i see a coherent gainfully employed society as a public good. having odd jobs in the "sharing economy" ain't gonna cut it.

Btw, over the past probably 8-9 months the intensity of headhunters trying to recruit for the UK has increased substantially. In the beginning they used to try to convince me "it will all be ok", but recently even they seem a bit blue and usually after being cut off end up with "yes, i understand, we get that a lot"
Valid statistic? Surely not. But it certainly creates a certain impression in my mind about how many people are refusing to go to the UK and apparently the UK is having a hard time finding qualified people.

	Quote:	k_and_e
	I agree. In countries with strong employee protection, employers are reluctant to hire people because they know it's almost impossible to fire them. Consequence is that there are many people on temp contracts, not able to get a mortgage etc and difficult to proceed in life, and it only protects the bad employees.

Yeah but in the case of the UK that happily massages the unemployment figures and people like BoJo trumpet that everyone is in work and rich AF.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	A free market works for both employers & employees.

And yet that is one of the BREXITEERS problems.... they voted to leave a single market with FMOP because others in the market were 'taking their jobs'

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I worked for 30 years on what would now be described as zero hour contracts, only there was never a contract & I might work for 10 companies in any month.

This sounds like CH to me. The opposite of France. Which way will the independent UK more likely head?

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	This sounds like CH to me. The opposite of France. Which way will the independent UK more likely head?

Employee protection legislation or the extent of it has nothing to do with EU membership. France, for instance, would be the same semi-socialist state in or outside of EU.

The British didn't need to get out of EU in order to change this system.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Employee protection legislation or the extent of it has nothing to do with EU membership. France, for instance, would be the same semi-socialist state in or outside of EU. The British didn't need to get out of EU in order to change this system.

Please stop confusing the anti-EU brigade.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	It is an insurance, as most things in CH. Paid in by people themselves. The conditions for "pay out" are tough. This un-entitlement mindset needs to exist in EU too, it mostly doesn't. Or not where the numbers bulk. It is not seen as a safety net here. Maybe it should be created, then. Small independent states have more chance to create small efficient systems.

The UK population isn't small, esp compared with CH.

I think there is very much a sense if entitlement in CH... in the sense that folk have paid in and therefore expect it. AFAIK .