The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	I've been under the RAV 3 times during my years here and, for the most part, no more than 3-4 months each time before I found another job so I do have at least an inkling of the system. I know that they don't allow people to divert from the career they signed on with and I guess this also applies to people who want to retrain even within their industry (otherwise, where do they draw the line on retraining?). In my experience, as long as you are applying for the requisite number of positions and are immediately available to go for interview and then start the job, then you are fulfilling the criteria. Taking a chunk of time out to do a course whilst you're under the RAV is, understandably, not allowed. Of course it has it's faults - which unemployment benefit system is perfect?

	Quote:
	I don't believe the burden of "working" for the RAV is all that intense - 10 to 12 job applications a month and they pay you a pretty generous "wage" for this. There was nothing stopping you retraining in your own time - plenty of people take distance learning courses for all kinds of things, even whilst in full employment.

That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

You assume people in the UK don't pay unemployments contributions from their salary? Sigh......

	Quote:	MusicChick
	That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

It would have been great had the UK had the foresight to implement such a system, but I feel it is far too late now. The magic money tree can't regrow quite that quickly.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

Snark, much?

There isn't the infrastructure. Plus, the population of CH, and likely the corresponding percentage of folk on RAV, is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the UK. Plus... you don't seem to have a clue about the UK system.

[Blueangel]

	Quote:
	So to mark the UK's forthcoming Best-Before date of 31st January, there is a 12 quid tea-towel on offer. TWELVE QUID FOR A TEA-TOWEL??

The one that tickles me is the 'magnet'. They appear to be loathe to call it a fridge magnet. I wonder why?

	Quote:	MusicChick
	That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

As you're a Czech living in Switzerland, I gotta ask why the rather misplaced exuberance?

	Quote:	Blueangel
	The one that tickles me is the 'magnet'. They appear to be loathe to call it a fridge magnet. I wonder why?

I bet it'll only hold one pizza menu to the fridge, too. Multi-layered behind a school timetable and a dentist appointment card it will be constantly on the floor.

	Quote:
	I've been under the RAV 3 times during my years here and, for the most part, no more than 3-4 months each time before I found another job so I do have at least an inkling of the system. I know that they don't allow people to divert from the career they signed on with and I guess this also applies to people who want to retrain even within their industry (otherwise, where do they draw the line on retraining?).

I'm not actively criticising the system, just trying to point out that your blasé statements about it being over-generous and an easy safety net do not always apply.

	Quote:
	I don't believe the burden of "working" for the RAV is all that intense - 10 to 12 job applications a month and they pay you a pretty generous "wage" for this. There was nothing stopping you retraining in your own time - plenty of people take distance learning courses for all kinds of things, even whilst in full employment.

Ten-twelve applications a month was a joke for me and my skillset. Even if I applied for all the ones I knew I wouldn't be considered for due to over-experience (they don't want someone who's always looking for better ways to do the job rather than just doing it, however flawed it might be) that left me with a huge shortfall that I had to make up with stupid timewasting no-chance-in-a-million-years applications. And then try to force those to give some feedback to prove I'd made the application.

As for retraining, the problem was that I had a decent project lined up in a new area, was happy to do it for free based on future commissions, but wasn't allowed to commit the time to doing so. Just doing courses would have been completely useless - a course or two but no hands-on experience in a particular software discipline gets you precisely nothing, not even past a first screening.

Rigid policies, mindlessly applied.

As I said, I don't really have a beef with them, but I do get annoyed when people suggest it's a cushy number for everyone. I fact the UK or even better the French systems would have left me much better off in the long term, given the limited time that the RAV system applies for.

	Quote:	greenmount
	You assume people in the UK don't pay unemployments contributions from their salary? Sigh......

You assume they do? Not in any accountable way, they don't. All the NI contributions just get lumped into the overall tax fund, so there's no actual link between premiums and benefits.

	Quote:
	I'm not actively criticising the system, just trying to point out that your blasé statements about it being over-generous and an easy safety net do not always apply.

Err... not sure that's what I said at all.

MC claimed the "conditions were tough to pay out". I answered that actually the conditions are not tough. You just have to meet the criteria which is pretty much standard for everyone.

Neither did I claim it was an "easy" safety net (not even sure what YOU mean by that ).

For those on the thread getting their knickers in a twist about CH employment law meaning you can apparently be shown the door at the drop of a hat, it means that you are then eligible to apply for unemployment assistance which, yes, is a safety net.

Not sure why this is causing such a pearl-clutching response. The RAV is what it is. If you want retraining you simply can't expect the RAV to bank roll it for you. Simple as.

It's just there to support you until you can get a new job.

By the way, nobody said it was "cushy". The times I've been on it were also tough and, depending on your advisor, can be downright teeth-grinding. In my experience, it certainly wasn't a 3 month jolly and I was glad to get back into the workplace.

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	You assume they do? Not in any accountable way, they don't. All the NI contributions just get lumped into the overall tax fund, so there's no actual link between premiums and benefits.

Is it employees' fault the system is not designed to have separate state insurance funds (e.g. pensions fund, unemployment benefits fund, health fund, handicap/invalidity fund)? Which is a bit odd for Europe today, btw. I guess it's one of those outdated things that UK used to be so proud of. Again, it could have been changed while still being a member of the EU.

Again, that doesn't mean people don't pay. Which in short, to answer your first sentence - yes.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	As you're a Czech living in Switzerland, I gotta ask why the rather misplaced exuberance?

Misplaced? Confused emoji?

Of course that you gotta ask.

It is probably not obvious what Brexit means in a bigger picture to other member states. It cannot be obvious, we haven't been thinking about individual states for a long time, it has always been the EU community. Friday will change it.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:
	You assume they do? Not in any accountable way, they don't.

This.

It is not easy to be on rav for many people, some opt for not claiming it.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Misplaced? Confused emoji? Of course that you gotta ask. It is probably not obvious what Brexit means in a bigger picture to other member states. It cannot be obvious, we haven't been thinking about individual states for a long time. Friday will change it.

"Bigger picture" sure - everyone and his dog as an opinion. But why are you so cockahoop about the potential "marvelous" changes to the UK benefit's system? Just seemed a bit weird.

	Quote:
	As for retraining, the problem was that I had a decent project lined up in a new area, was happy to do it for free based on future commissions, but wasn't allowed to commit the time to doing so.

You absolutely could have done this by not claiming RAV, surely?

[hairybadger]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	That's awesome then. So, simple and implementable. Looking forward to the UK starting this marvelous system, since from your posts it sounds as if positive attitude is all one needs. And paying into it, I haste to add. Minor details.

	Quote:
	As you're a Czech living in Switzerland, I gotta ask why the rather misplaced exuberance?

I read MusicChick's post as sarcasm. No?

	Quote:	hairybadger
	I read MusicChick's post as sarcasm. No?

Ah, that'll be it...

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	I'm not actively criticising the system, just trying to point out that your blasé statements about it being over-generous and an easy safety net do not always apply. .

I think there are exactly the same misconceptions about the UK system......i.e. over-generous and an easy safety net for all.

	Quote:
	You assume they do? Not in any accountable way, they don't. All the NI contributions just get lumped into the overall tax fund, so there's no actual link between premiums and benefits.

No.

National Insurance goes to pay, AFAIK, for the NHS, employement/sickness benefits, mat pay and state pension. It's ring fenced but can be borrowed from I think.

So yes, a link. Otherwise why have a link between NI contributions and amount of state pension you're eligible for?

	Quote:
	No. National Insurance goes to pay, AFAIK, for the NHS, employement/sickness benefits, mat pay and state pension. It's ring fenced but can be borrowed from I think. So yes, a link. Otherwise why have a link between NI contributions and amount of state pension you're eligible for?

Nope. Ace was right, it goes into general taxation.

There is a link between NIC and the state pension entitlement (and 1 or 2 other benefits) but only to the extent that paying NIC gives you that entitlement. There is no funding link.

	Quote:
	Nope. Ace was right, it goes into general taxation. There is a link between NIC and the state pension entitlement (and 1 or 2 other benefits) but only to the extent that paying NIC gives you that entitlement. There is no funding link.

Quite so. And all the more major benefits, Healthcare, Income Support (or whatever it's called these days), disability benefits, etc. are independent, i.e. you're equally entitled to them whether you've been paying National Insurance contributions or not.

I think there's a separate Unemployment Benefit which is only payable for a given period after becoming unemployed, so there's a link of sorts, but it's not directly related to contributions paid in.

Some background reading here for anyone interested. (Claims to be independent, but I don't vouch for its accuracy).