The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[22 yards]

Yep, that's cool. If it wants to trade with the EU, the UK will have to abide by EU laws and standards. The Brits will also have to abide by EU laws -- for furrners -- if they want to drop by their mates in the EU.

But they will be travelling on gorgeous blue passports.

Everybody's a winner!

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	From the Canadian CETA agreement

Baffled how you can make the assumption that I expect the UK to be able to ignore the standards of the market it is exporting to. This isn’t how trade works. Have fun creating your straw man, like the others keep on talking about the British Empire!

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Baffled how you can make the assumption that I expect the UK to be able to ignore the standards of the market it is exporting to. This isn’t how trade works. Have fun creating your straw man, like the others keep on talking about the British Empire!

Goalposts moved.

How does this relate to your desire for British sovereignty to remain then? And get trade agreements solely on the UK's own terms?

I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is, either.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Goalposts moved. How does this relate to your desire for British sovereignty to remain then? And get trade agreements solely on the UK's own terms? I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is, either.

In what way have any goalposts been moved?
I have never said the UK should get a trade agreement solely on her own terms. I have stated that sovereign matters that take place within a nations borders shouldn’t be up for negotiation nor part of any trade deal.

You said this:

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	No, just a deal where the UKs sovereignty is respected and no unreasonable demands are made

Then this:

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	That recognition is given to the UK's fishing grounds and access is there to be granted and not demanded. That a trade deal is not dependent on the UK "aligning" to European regulations and standards, that the UK is free to set her own tax and state aid regime without EU interference. That any arbitration mechanism isn't managed by the EU. Basically the same conditions that have formed the basis of the EU's trade deals with other sovereign nations like Japan and Canada.

Marton showed you to be... we'll go with inaccurate... and you changed your tune to this:

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Baffled how you can make the assumption that I expect the UK to be able to ignore the standards of the market it is exporting to. This isn’t how trade works. Have fun creating your straw man, like the others keep on talking about the British Empire!

Now you appear bamboozled by your own words:

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	In what way have any goalposts been moved? I have never said the UK should get a trade agreement solely on her own terms. I have stated that sovereign matters that take place within a nations borders shouldn’t be up for negotiation nor part of any trade deal.

That's exactly what you implied by the use of the word "sovereignty," in wanting the EU to kowtow despite us (soon, probably already) having conceding negotiating power and your repeated use of the female pronoun to refer to the UK.

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	In what way have any goalposts been moved? I have never said the UK should get a trade agreement solely on her own terms. I have stated that sovereign matters that take place within a nations borders shouldn’t be up for negotiation nor part of any trade deal.

OK, I will try again.

So what are these "sovereign matters" that should not be up for negotiation but, I assume, you claim are currently managed by the EU?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	OK, I will try again. So what are these "sovereign matters" that should not be up for negotiation but, I assume, you claim are currently managed by the EU?

I already listed them, but if it's hard for you to gather that from the prose, I'll make a nice list for you here:

Tax
Fishing
Regulation and Standards (e.g. Environmental and Employment)
State Aid

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Marton showed you to be... we'll go with inaccurate... and you changed your tune to this:

I haven't changed any tune. Keep building that straw man.

	Quote:
	That's exactly what you implied by the use of the word "sovereignty," in wanting the EU to kowtow despite us (soon, probably already) having conceding negotiating power

I've neither implied nor said this. Why can't you just stick to what's been written?

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I already listed them, but if it's hard for you to gather that from the prose, I'll make a nice list for you here: Tax Fishing Regulation and Standards (e.g. Environmental and Employment) State Aid

Well, tax is set by individual EU states not centrally.
Regulation and standards we already agreed will have to conform to customer's requirements. Many environmental standards are international so will be difficult to walk away from. Likely Employment regulations will be reduced or cancelled but this is hardly a benefit for the people who voted Leave.
State Aid; we will as a minimum have to comply with WTO rules.

Fishing rights were subject to agreements with other interested countries long before the EU was created. There will have to be a negotiation; the elephant in this room is that UK boats will need to fish in non-UK waters to catch most of the fish popular in the UK.

[justpassingby]

	Quote:	marton
	Fishing rights were subject to agreements with other interested countries long before the EU was created. There will have to be a negotiation; the elephant in this room is that UK boats will need to fish in non-UK waters to catch most of the fish popular in the UK.

Why do you say that. UK boats already catch 80% of their catch in UK Waters:

https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov....tics-2017-eez/

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	marton
	Well, tax is set by individual EU states not centrally. Regulation and standards we already agreed will have to conform to customer's requirements. Many environmental standards are international so will be difficult to walk away from. Likely Employment regulations will be reduced or cancelled but this is hardly a benefit for the people who voted Leave. State Aid; we will as a minimum have to comply with WTO rules. Fishing rights were subject to agreements with other interested countries long before the EU was created. There will have to be a negotiation; the elephant in this room is that UK boats will need to fish in non-UK waters to catch most of the fish popular in the UK.

Minimum tax rates are set by the EU. State aid is also very highly regulated (see how they went after Ireland for their dealings with Apple). Regarding regulations and standards, the idea of not aligning isn’t to lower them, it’s rather to ensure they better match to the requirements of the UK. Why should the EU be seen as the authority on this matter?!

	Quote:	justpassingby
	Why do you say that. UK boats already catch 80% of their catch in UK Waters: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov....tics-2017-eez/

which is then mostly sold to the EU- because we don't like our fish- and prefer to import fish caught in the EU for our 'fish and chips'.

[TonyClifton]

There was a fantastic speech given yesterday by David Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, setting out the UK’s negotiating position. It’s such a difference to have a clear position that is fully supported by a strong government. This was the mistake of Theresa May, she argued that the UK was exceptional and so needed a special deal. Boris Johnson is happy to accept a standard deal, the ball is very much in the EU’s court!

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I haven't changed any tune. Keep building that straw man. I've neither implied nor said this. Why can't you just stick to what's been written?

Yes you have and then you do what several others attempt on here which is the EF equivalent of "sit down, dear, and be quiet".

I do stick to what is being written. However, if you actually mean something other than what you actually write then, frankly, you shouldn't be surprised at the reaction you get.

The EU has nothing to do with individual state tax rates.

You keep wittering about straw man. No. You just don't like being caught out with your wrong "facts".

	Quote:	justpassingby
	Why do you say that. UK boats already catch 80% of their catch in UK Waters: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov....tics-2017-eez/

And don't eat them. The other others 20% is a hell of a lot of income for an already hit hard industry to lose.


Edit: odile already made the point about UK fish export.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	There was a fantastic speech given yesterday by David Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, setting out the UK’s negotiating position. It’s such a difference to have a clear position that is fully supported by a strong government. This was the mistake of Theresa May, she argued that the UK was exceptional and so needed a special deal. Boris Johnson is happy to accept a standard deal, the ball is very much in the EU’s court!

So is the UK special or not? Its sovereignty should be maintained or not.

Have you or have you not now just agreed that the proverbial cheese is now very firmly with the EU?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	justpassingby
	Why do you say that. UK boats already catch 80% of their catch in UK Waters: https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov....tics-2017-eez/

From the link you posted:

	Quote:
	In 2017, UK fishing vessels landed the majority of their catch from UK waters; 80 per cent by quantity and 83 per cent by value.

[TonyClifton]

I've posted a link below for those interested in reading David Frost's speech in full. I would suggest that you do.

I was really encouraged by the following passage, because of how important it is:-

	Quote:
	A second fundamental is that we bring to the negotiations not some clever tactical positioning but the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country. It is central to our vision that we must have the ability to set laws that suit us – to claim the right that every other non-EU country in the world has. So to think that we might accept EU supervision on so-called level playing field issues simply fails to see the point of what we are doing. That isn’t a simple negotiating position which might move under pressure – it is the point of the whole project. That’s also why we are not going to extend the transition period beyond the end of this year. At the end of this year, we would recover our political and economic independence in full – why would we want to postpone it? That is the point of Brexit. In short, we only want what other independent countries have.

Unfortunately Michel Barnier seems to already have come out and said that a Canada style agreement is no longer on the table, after previously saying it was one of the only options on the table. It's odd, that after rejecting Theresa May's request for a bespoke deal, this now seems to be the only deal the EU are offering Boris Johnson! I get the feeling that either the EU underestimate the strength of this government or simply are not taking the request seriously.

https://reaction.life/david-frost-sp...exit-position/

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	So is the UK special or not? Its sovereignty should be maintained or not. Have you or have you not now just agreed that the proverbial cheese is now very firmly with the EU?

I've already stated enough times that NO the UK is not special, and YES it's critical that sovereignty be reestablished. Read the speech, I share this view almost to the letter.

And you're incorrect in saying that the EU has the upper hand in talks now. This government has already accepted there will be trade friction, something that was a no go under the previous government, which was why the EU were able to get as many concessions. You, like many others, seem to see this negotiation as a zero-sum contest. It's not! If no deal is agreed then the damage will be mutually assured!

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I've already stated enough times that NO the UK is not special, and YES it's critical that sovereignty be reestablished. Read the speech, I share this view almost to the letter. And you're incorrect in saying that the EU has the upper hand in talks now. This government has already accepted there will be trade friction, something that was a no go under the previous government, which was why the EU were able to get as many concessions. You, like many others, seem to see this negotiation as a zero-sum contest. It's not! If no deal is agreed then the damage will be mutually assured!

It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else here.

	Quote:
	Yes you have and then you do what several others attempt on here which is the EF equivalent of "sit down, dear, and be quiet". .

Have mercy, it's the only place they can do that. On an online forum....! How brave.