The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	we have a friend who is a 3rd generation chimney sweep, and his son is taking over as 4th. And it is very very well paid indeed (as it is compulsory in Switzerland to have chimneys swept once a year).

Are you still allowed open fires? In the Chamonix Valley only 'enclosed' is allowed, ours has glass that drops down so I assume comes under 'enclosed'. The law may toughen further in 2022.

Yes- we have both, an alpine stone clad wood burner (Hase, amazing) and an open chimney (which we very rarely use, in the 'library') - but the chimney sweep also cleans the flue for the oil central heating.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Are you still allowed open fires? In the Chamonix Valley only 'enclosed' is allowed, ours has glass that drops down so I assume comes under 'enclosed'. The law may toughen further in 2022.

No problem in BL... also VD. I suspect most, if not all cantons allow open fireplaces still. Maybe not BS, as it's mostly urban?

	Quote:	amogles
	There are hardly any impoverished carpenters, but many IKEA staff live on minimal wages. I guess we can agree on this. But is this because artesanal work is inherently more profitable than mass production? Or is it because only the rich can afford proper workmanship and don't mind paying for it? Many tradional skills thus survive in a niche serving the mid to high end of the market.

Dunno. While interesting to think about I don't think this was the direction of the initial point: that these skills are dying out/being replaced.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Interesting. My (last) chimney sweeper was a third-generation chimney sweep and my A&E consultant neighbour was retraining as a Blacksmith in is (not very) spare time. Being clothed, fed and housed is a lot more than some folk get now. As for your last point....

Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, although communism and serfdom worked under a similar principle (both failed).

Universal Basic Income has one aim and that is to destroy the middle classes. "Vote for us or starve" can only end in disaster.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked

Post voluntarily edited : this is a truly sick way of thinking

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	You are one sick individual.

Excuse me?!

Slaves did NOT get a wage, and they did not have rights, and they did not have freedom- and they could be used in any way, shape or form as the master pleased- in the most depraved and sick ways. So calling this 'a wage' is sick.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, .

It has worked?


And by comparison, communism failed? lol

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Slaves did NOT get a wage, and they did not have rights, and they did not have freedom- and they could be used in any way, shape or form as the master pleased- in the most depraved and sick way. So calling this 'a wage' is sick.

And if you think one would be "free" under universal basic income, then you are very much mistaken. That's the point.

[greenmount]

I think most people want equal opportunities not equal incomes.....

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	And if you think one would be "free" under universal basic income, then you are very much mistaken. That's the point.

And do you think the majority of people are truly free in the current economical-political system? Really?

A basic universal income would not lock anyone down, and it would be linked to basic human rights too and in Switzerland, health and accident insurance, or in the UK the NHS (and don't come and tell me slavery did).

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	And do you think the majority of people are truly free in the current economical-political system? Really? A basic universal income would not lock anyone down, and it would be linked to basic human rights too and in Switzerland, health and accident insurance, or in the UK the NHS (and don't come and tell me slavery did).

You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does

I wondered how long it would take you- you are so so very predictable dear.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does

The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work. I'm also not really sure what problem it is meant to solve tbh. For me it's just profligacy with taxpayer money.

I guess a benefit of the cantonal system is that one can choose in what sort of place to live and choose somewhere that has similar values to oneself - eg I've chosen to move from Baselstadt to Aargau. I really value this freedom.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	jorido
	The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work. I'm also not really sure what problem it is meant to solve tbh. For me it's just profligacy with taxpayer money. I guess a benefit of the cantonal system is that one can choose in what sort of place to live and choose somewhere that has similar values to oneself - eg I've chosen to move from Baselstadt to Aargau. I really value this freedom.

In the UK I doubt it would cost any more than the existing benefits & tax credits system, the poor will get less just a different way of slicing the cake.

[marton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	In socialism people had to work for their bread, trust me. I don't know to which "socialism" you're referring to, maybe the British one. Now, in the EU which included UK too and still does practically, they're opening businesses financed by EU, having access to the poorer parts of EU's human resources and natural resources, they (the "rich") profit, the poorer parts don't. Not really. We regressed since accession to EU imo. Let's call it a day. That's imperialism. Don't know which type of imperialism, I have to come up with a name for that. It's something terrifying and scary imo, this pandemic revealed all the inequalities and all our wounds. Broken health systems, rapid loss of jobs, poverty etc etc. What has been done to fix all of these or to make it less likely to happen? Not much. I edited my message because I really, really don't want to give some people here the opportunity to gloat over my musings, so let me rephrase it: I don't like this EU of dependencies but not solidarity. There's a need for reform and change of economic paradigm. I find it more and more difficult to be supportive these days. I don't feel like continuing this conversation for the moment. Thanks.

I assume you mean communism, not socialism?

(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	jorido
	The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work.

You can't really see it like that though even during low unemployment there are easy to fill jobs and not easy to fill jobs and adjustments it takes...say lower number of children, schools opening fewer classes, teachers and edu admin retraining and loking for jobs elsewhere so it takes a while and there will be more of certain job seekers than others. Especially in a place where employment under 18yr and over 50 yrs is rough to find and where for each jobs you need very particular certificates and a particular language too. Sometimes languages and certifs are canton dependent, it reduces mobility and job chances. So low unemployment is a very particular balancing act here.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, although communism and serfdom worked under a similar principle (both failed). Universal Basic Income has one aim and that is to destroy the middle classes. "Vote for us or starve" can only end in disaster.

Eh? You're equating a living wage with slavery and degradation?

You do understand what slavery is, yes? Essentially a subsuming of self? No rights. No protections. No ownership of your own body. You may find your analogy deliciously dramatic but it is certainly not accurate. IMO. Obvs. I'm not an economist. I do know that living on minimum wage stinks.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does

Where do you NOT have to pay?

Not a private insurance like here but a contribution to a state health fund is mandatory everywhere as far as I know and it's the employer's responsibility.

Hiring anyone without paying their social contributions is stealing from both the employee and from the state (social funds administered by a state). And you'd be surprised how common this practice is...unfortunately is doesn't reflect on the prices of goods or services, it's just going into some pockets.

Edit> my comment is in general, it has nothing to do with Odile's situation.