The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[John William]

	Quote:	CodPeace
	One thing is for sure, now at last the UK will get a decent house price crash. Brexit was already going to cause issues, but now the global recession ( actually predicted a depression ) and the death of so many companies, and the verticle drop off in tourism, combined with the financial fall out from Covid19, will take a heavy toll.

Maybe that great hit of the past - during The Great Depression called 'Brother can you spare me a dime ?'
could be hitting the charts and making its way up through 'the Top 40' after picking up the pieces
following the Coronavirus crisis.

The origins of Brother can you spare me a dime ?

[marton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Yes. The global "business" model will fail. Please enlighten me because I didn't study economics, what would you call this economic model we're seeing now? I mean, it's definitely not liberal capitalism or economic liberalism or whatever. It's a regression in the past of humanity if you ask me. It will fail. Let meritocracy begin.

This economic model is called socialism.
The Govt. steps in and financially supports both companies and individuals.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	This economic model is called socialism. The Govt. steps in and financially supports both companies and individuals.

In socialism people had to work for their bread, trust me. I don't know to which "socialism" you're referring to, maybe the British one.

Now, in the EU which included UK too and still does practically, they're opening businesses financed by EU, having access to the poorer parts of EU's human resources and natural resources, they (the "rich") profit, the poorer parts don't. Not really. We regressed since accession to EU imo.
Let's call it a day. That's imperialism. Don't know which type of imperialism, I have to come up with a name for that. It's something terrifying and scary imo, this pandemic revealed all the inequalities and all our wounds. Broken health systems, rapid loss of jobs, poverty etc etc. What has been done to fix all of these or to make it less likely to happen? Not much.

I edited my message because I really, really don't want to give some people here the opportunity to gloat over my musings, so let me rephrase it: I don't like this EU of dependencies but not solidarity. There's a need for reform and change of economic paradigm. I find it more and more difficult to be supportive these days. I don't feel like continuing this conversation for the moment. Thanks.

[amogles]

	Quote:	CodPeace
	One thing is for sure, now at last the UK will get a decent house price crash. Brexit was already going to cause issues, but now the global recession ( actually predicted a depression ) and the death of so many companies, and the verticle drop off in tourism, combined with the financial fall out from Covid19, will take a heavy toll.

In contrast to many other types of crash, a housing crash has two sides. What may be bad news for those seeking to sell is good news for those seeking to buy. And don't forget that anybody who has bought and held onto their property for any reasonable span of time is still going to come out ahead if they sell now. It's not as if we're going back to 1970s prices or anything. The Uk housing market, especially that of London, is so crazily overhyped that it makes Swiss real estate seem a bargain in comparison. Some downward correction is not necessarily bad news IMHO.

[amogles]

	Quote:	marton
	This economic model is called socialism. The Govt. steps in and financially supports both companies and individuals.

How about just calling it interventionism?

Keynesianism even?

	Quote:	amogles
	In contrast to many other types of crash, a housing crash has two sides. What may be bad news for those seeking to sell is good news for those seeking to buy. And don't forget that anybody who has bought and held onto their property for any reasonable span of time is still going to come out ahead if they sell now. It's not as if we're going back to 1970s prices or anything. The Uk housing market, especially that of London, is so crazily overhyped that it makes Swiss real estate seem a bargain in comparison. Some downward correction is not necessarily bad news IMHO.

The Daily Mail will tell you it's the end of the world.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Exactly this! Blacksmiths became mechanics, chimney sweeps became heating fitters, humanity adapts. Always has, always will! This is why I am so opposed to the idea of a “Universal Basic Income” as it only serves to create two classes- masters and servants. A Universal Basic Income would only be enough to keep people clothed, fed and housed, nothing more. History tells us the only place that has ever worked was on the cotton plantations!

Interesting. My (last) chimney sweeper was a third-generation chimney sweep and my A&E consultant neighbour was retraining as a Blacksmith in is (not very) spare time.

Being clothed, fed and housed is a lot more than some folk get now.

As for your last point....

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Interesting. My (last) chimney sweeper was a third-generation chimney sweep and my A&E consultant neighbour was retraining as a Blacksmith in is (not very) spare time. Being clothed, fed and housed is a lot more than some folk get now. As for your last point....

There are hardly any impoverished carpenters, but many IKEA staff live on minimal wages.

I guess we can agree on this.

But is this because artesanal work is inherently more profitable than mass production? Or is it because only the rich can afford proper workmanship and don't mind paying for it? Many tradional skills thus survive in a niche serving the mid to high end of the market.

	Quote:
	Interesting. My (last) chimney sweeper was a third-generation chimney sweep and my A&E consultant neighbour was retraining as a Blacksmith in is (not very) spare time. Being clothed, fed and housed is a lot more than some folk get now. As for your last point....

we have a friend who is a 3rd generation chimney sweep, and his son is taking over as 4th. And it is very very well paid indeed (as it is compulsory in Switzerland to have chimneys swept once a year).

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	we have a friend who is a 3rd generation chimney sweep, and his son is taking over as 4th. And it is very very well paid indeed (as it is compulsory in Switzerland to have chimneys swept once a year).

Are you still allowed open fires? In the Chamonix Valley only 'enclosed' is allowed, ours has glass that drops down so I assume comes under 'enclosed'. The law may toughen further in 2022.

Yes- we have both, an alpine stone clad wood burner (Hase, amazing) and an open chimney (which we very rarely use, in the 'library') - but the chimney sweep also cleans the flue for the oil central heating.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Are you still allowed open fires? In the Chamonix Valley only 'enclosed' is allowed, ours has glass that drops down so I assume comes under 'enclosed'. The law may toughen further in 2022.

No problem in BL... also VD. I suspect most, if not all cantons allow open fireplaces still. Maybe not BS, as it's mostly urban?

	Quote:	amogles
	There are hardly any impoverished carpenters, but many IKEA staff live on minimal wages. I guess we can agree on this. But is this because artesanal work is inherently more profitable than mass production? Or is it because only the rich can afford proper workmanship and don't mind paying for it? Many tradional skills thus survive in a niche serving the mid to high end of the market.

Dunno. While interesting to think about I don't think this was the direction of the initial point: that these skills are dying out/being replaced.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Interesting. My (last) chimney sweeper was a third-generation chimney sweep and my A&E consultant neighbour was retraining as a Blacksmith in is (not very) spare time. Being clothed, fed and housed is a lot more than some folk get now. As for your last point....

Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, although communism and serfdom worked under a similar principle (both failed).

Universal Basic Income has one aim and that is to destroy the middle classes. "Vote for us or starve" can only end in disaster.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked

Post voluntarily edited : this is a truly sick way of thinking

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	You are one sick individual.

Excuse me?!

Slaves did NOT get a wage, and they did not have rights, and they did not have freedom- and they could be used in any way, shape or form as the master pleased- in the most depraved and sick ways. So calling this 'a wage' is sick.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, .

It has worked?


And by comparison, communism failed? lol

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Slaves did NOT get a wage, and they did not have rights, and they did not have freedom- and they could be used in any way, shape or form as the master pleased- in the most depraved and sick way. So calling this 'a wage' is sick.

And if you think one would be "free" under universal basic income, then you are very much mistaken. That's the point.

[greenmount]

I think most people want equal opportunities not equal incomes.....