The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I didn't mean that, rather that is how the governments would view people who receive a universal basic income.

At the risk of sounding incredibly cynical, I imagine governments by and large think mostly in terms of division anyway: folk like them and everyone else. Quite a sobering thought.

Would a UBI drive up a minimum wage or merely drive up taxation?

Thanks for responding.

[Raffles]

Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change.
Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses.
And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year.
I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress.
Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, relieve anything unjust or oppressive.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Raffles
	Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change. Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses. And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year. I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress. Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, to relieve. Anything unjust or oppressive.

UK doesn't need foreigners, doesn't need foreigners, doesn't need foreigners, repeat the mantra and every problem will go away. I wonder what constructions or elderly care sectors will have to say about it. But I do hope they'll reject anyone, lock themselves on that island, finish Brexit and start the party.
Trump will save the Queen!

	Quote:	Raffles
	Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change. Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses. And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year. I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress. Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, relieve anything unjust or oppressive.

I reckon it'll be one of those speeches you end up watching from between your fingers.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	In France the children have to contribute if they are higher earners, I think this is correct way.

In Switzerland, it is very much, as most things, C/Kantonal. My neighbour in NE from Bern, who mother was in a care home in Bern- was so worried he would have to sel his own family home to pay for her care when her own money run out. 'Fortunately' she died before that happened. In NE, people have to use savings, pensions and proceeds from house, and then the Canton picks up the bill when all but pensions run out- but leave a sum for children to share. From top of head, I think it is about 25.000 each, to be shared with children. My parents' savings and proceeds of the family home all went to pay for their care. Same for my mil in the UK. I agree with FMF.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Yet all this works without huge amounts of free money being thrown around to oil the cogs.

All this works because huge amounts of free money is not being thrown around to oil the cogs. This supports what I said.

Not only restraint. It breeds pride and honor. And there are other motivation levels than cash, cushy or assurance. There are certain early taught competences, self reliance and self sufficiency that are needed more than top down provided security or cash. In fact, there is very little top down here traditionally hence the self reliance and self sustainability skills. You account to yourself for the situation you are in.. Mix with some risk, some intellectual curiosity and there you go.

	Quote:
	How can you transfer that sort of civic culture to less functional countries?

You mean individual, personal responsability so the whole collective can grow without worrying about selfishness? Schools. Schools not compensating for the role of family or a wider community. Here the school doesn't. There is no free lunch here. It gets loaned.

The collectiveness exists here big time, I think it is because self reliance makes peple less worried about themselves and they can worry about others and help them. Especially now in this crisis people pull together. Everybody hangs at their window at 9pm here and appreciates the heros and for a bit of quasi social life but mosf of all, to check if everyone else is doing ok.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	In Switzerland, it is very much, as most things, C/Kantonal. My neighbour in NE from Bern, who mother was in a care home in Bern- was so worried he would have to sel his own family home to pay for her care when her own money run out. 'Fortunately' she died before that happened. In NE, people have to use savings, pensions and proceeds from house, and then the Canton picks up the bill when all but pensions run out- but leave a sum for children to share. From top of head, I think it is about 25.000 each, to be shared with children. My parents' savings and proceeds of the family home all went to pay for their care. Same for my mil in the UK. I agree with FMF.

My Mother has been having 24/7 care at home since 2011, costs about £90,000 a year, other household costs, food, physio etc. run at least another £30,000. The equity in the house will be exhausted in about 6 years, possibly sooner if house prices fall. It's her money so her choice how she spends it, she has not had a cold or cough in 5 years. Had she moved to a nursing home I am sure she would have died long ago due to lower quality of life & no wish to live.

Agreed. My MIL suffered from dementia- so the choice of care at home run out fast. My father looked after my mum for many years, with outside help- but when he became ill himself and had to go into hospital, leaving my mum at home just was not an option, as blind and wheelchair bound. She returned home when he was better, and we stepped up outside help- but when he was hospitalised the second time- there was no option. That is when we decided to move here to help- but it was all too late. I have no complaints whatsoever about their money going towards their care.

[roegner]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	My Mother has been having 24/7 care at home since 2011, costs about £90,000 a year, other household costs, food, physio etc. run at least another £30,000. The equity in the house will be exhausted in about 6 years, possibly sooner if house prices fall. It's her money so her choice how she spends it, she has not had a cold or cough in 5 years. Had she moved to a nursing home I am sure she would have died long ago due to lower quality of life & no wish to live.

We had private care for my mother in law, money well spent, I agree with you FMF. It was also much easier for her (I think) to stay in her own home, with her own things, her own garden, even if she could not enjoy that so much later on.

My mom was in a nursing home in the Netherlands, which she enjoyed as they arranged nice outings and things.

Either way is not cheap, but then it´s your parents!

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Would a UBI drive up a minimum wage or merely drive up taxation? Thanks for responding.

Both probably, and then it would fail. They did an experiment in Finland I believe, and that failed too.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Both probably, and then it would fail. They did an experiment in Finland I believe, and that failed too.

This is my fear exactly.

Basic income is at its core a good idea. But of you let the socialist types run away with it, it has all the potential to be a huge train crash.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	This is my fear exactly. Basic income is at its core a good idea. But of you let the socialist types run away with it, it has all the potential to be a huge train crash.

Well, it can work. But nothing else will

Meaning? Could you elaborate- a bit vague, sorry.

[KiwiSteve]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-room-cartoon

[doropfiz]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Both probably, and then it would fail. They did an experiment in Finland I believe, and that failed too.

The study conducted in Finnland was not about "Universal/Unconditional Basic Income". It was an attempt at finding a different way to support those who are registered as unemployed, to see if this would

1. make them feel better, and thereby
2. motivate them to get back to work.

"The Finnish experiment was about partial basic income targeting able-bodied people without work, it was not about universal basic income. That has been a source of major confusion around the experiment and a source of critique of it."

"In the Finnish experiment, a randomly selected group of 2,000 young unemployed and long-term unemployed Finns were paid 560 euros per month for a study period of two years regardless of employment status. The rest of the unemployed in Finland formed the control group."

The Finnish study would be, if re-created in a Swiss context, to compare two groups:
Test Group
Some selected people on RAV (unemployment benefits) who would be paid a flat rate of benefits, while

1. exempting them from the usual RAV requirements to look for work and to participate in work-integration measures set by the RAV,
2. allowing them, if they did manage to earn anything during the period of the study, to keep all this money (no offset against RAV benefits).

Control Group
Other people on RAV with more or less similar characteristics.

The reason this experiment was said to have failed was because, although some of those people reported feeling better, they did not achieve more days of employment. However, a very low percentage replied to the survey.

Besides that, there were several methodoligical weaknesses. In addition, the regulations governing the control group changed part-way through the study period, so the comparison is no longer clean, anyway.
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/nord...ome-experiment

[Troublawesome]

Can a mode please close this thread? Let it die in peace.

The last 50 pages are completely off topic.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	Can a mode please close this thread? Let it die in peace. The last 50 pages are completely off topic.

Agree. Let it die in peace, as UK's membership to EU.

May them both rest in peace.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Troublawesome
	Can a mode please close this thread?

Why? Brexit is still on the program despite the EF meandering.

I read that Italy isn't too happy with the EU management.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Why? Brexit is still on the program despite the EF meandering. I read that Italy isn't too happy with the EU management.

I haven't noticed too many Italians on EF very anti-EU.

Or if you plan to have a stable anti-EU agenda on this forum, just say so.
Apparently this forum will be what a couple of mods want it to be.

It's a pity it started as a way to connect expats living in CH and it gradually turned into a political forum leaning to the (far) right. But hey, at least let's admit it and be honest about it.

	Quote:	greenmount
	I haven't noticed too many Italians on EF very anti-EU. Or if you plan to have a stable anti-EU agenda on this forum, just say so. Apparently this forum will be what a couple of mods want it to be. It's a pity it started as a way to connect expats living in CH and it gradually turned into a political forum leaning to the (far) right. But hey, at least let's admit it and be honest about it.

I assume that MC is referring to the "Corona bonds" or EU financial support for the pandemy and the financial conditions. Italy is not too happy with the conditions but that is something really different than being anti EU.