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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #27241  
Old 21.04.2020, 13:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And if you think one would be "free" under universal basic income, then you are very much mistaken. That's the point.
And do you think the majority of people are truly free in the current economical-political system? Really?

A basic universal income would not lock anyone down, and it would be linked to basic human rights too and in Switzerland, health and accident insurance, or in the UK the NHS (and don't come and tell me slavery did).
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  #27242  
Old 21.04.2020, 13:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And do you think the majority of people are truly free in the current economical-political system? Really?

A basic universal income would not lock anyone down, and it would be linked to basic human rights too and in Switzerland, health and accident insurance, or in the UK the NHS (and don't come and tell me slavery did).
You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does
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  #27243  
Old 21.04.2020, 15:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I wondered how long it would take you- you are so so very predictable dear.
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  #27244  
Old 21.04.2020, 16:48
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You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does
The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work. I'm also not really sure what problem it is meant to solve tbh. For me it's just profligacy with taxpayer money.

I guess a benefit of the cantonal system is that one can choose in what sort of place to live and choose somewhere that has similar values to oneself - eg I've chosen to move from Baselstadt to Aargau. I really value this freedom.
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Old 21.04.2020, 17:06
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The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work. I'm also not really sure what problem it is meant to solve tbh. For me it's just profligacy with taxpayer money.

I guess a benefit of the cantonal system is that one can choose in what sort of place to live and choose somewhere that has similar values to oneself - eg I've chosen to move from Baselstadt to Aargau. I really value this freedom.
In the UK I doubt it would cost any more than the existing benefits & tax credits system, the poor will get less just a different way of slicing the cake.
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  #27246  
Old 21.04.2020, 17:16
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In socialism people had to work for their bread, trust me. I don't know to which "socialism" you're referring to, maybe the British one.

Now, in the EU which included UK too and still does practically, they're opening businesses financed by EU, having access to the poorer parts of EU's human resources and natural resources, they (the "rich") profit, the poorer parts don't. Not really. We regressed since accession to EU imo.
Let's call it a day. That's imperialism. Don't know which type of imperialism, I have to come up with a name for that. It's something terrifying and scary imo, this pandemic revealed all the inequalities and all our wounds. Broken health systems, rapid loss of jobs, poverty etc etc. What has been done to fix all of these or to make it less likely to happen? Not much.

I edited my message because I really, really don't want to give some people here the opportunity to gloat over my musings, so let me rephrase it: I don't like this EU of dependencies but not solidarity. There's a need for reform and change of economic paradigm. I find it more and more difficult to be supportive these days. I don't feel like continuing this conversation for the moment. Thanks.
I assume you mean communism, not socialism?

(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.
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  #27247  
Old 21.04.2020, 17:39
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The more pressing arguments against it are that we (corona aside - I think we are talking long term here) have historically low unemployment and frankly that it shouldn't be possible to live on taxpayers money unless there's a very good reason why you can't work.
You can't really see it like that though even during low unemployment there are easy to fill jobs and not easy to fill jobs and adjustments it takes...say lower number of children, schools opening fewer classes, teachers and edu admin retraining and loking for jobs elsewhere so it takes a while and there will be more of certain job seekers than others. Especially in a place where employment under 18yr and over 50 yrs is rough to find and where for each jobs you need very particular certificates and a particular language too. Sometimes languages and certifs are canton dependent, it reduces mobility and job chances. So low unemployment is a very particular balancing act here.
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  #27248  
Old 21.04.2020, 18:40
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Slaves got a universal basic income, they were housed fed and clothed. It's the only place it has ever worked, although communism and serfdom worked under a similar principle (both failed).

Universal Basic Income has one aim and that is to destroy the middle classes. "Vote for us or starve" can only end in disaster.
Eh? You're equating a living wage with slavery and degradation?

You do understand what slavery is, yes? Essentially a subsuming of self? No rights. No protections. No ownership of your own body. You may find your analogy deliciously dramatic but it is certainly not accurate. IMO. Obvs. I'm not an economist. I do know that living on minimum wage stinks.
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  #27249  
Old 21.04.2020, 20:44
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You have to pay for Health Insurance this 'basic human right' in CH. OK you don't pay but everybody else does
Where do you NOT have to pay?

Not a private insurance like here but a contribution to a state health fund is mandatory everywhere as far as I know and it's the employer's responsibility.

Hiring anyone without paying their social contributions is stealing from both the employee and from the state (social funds administered by a state). And you'd be surprised how common this practice is...unfortunately is doesn't reflect on the prices of goods or services, it's just going into some pockets.

Edit> my comment is in general, it has nothing to do with Odile's situation.

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  #27250  
Old 21.04.2020, 21:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Where do you NOT have to pay?

Not a private insurance like here but a contribution to a state health fund is mandatory everywhere as far as I know and it's the employer's responsibility.

Hiring anyone without paying their social contributions is stealing from both the employee and from the state (social funds administered by a state). And you'd be surprised how common this practice is...unfortunately is doesn't reflect on the prices of goods or services, it's just going into some pockets.

Edit> my comment is in general, it has nothing to do with Odile's situation.
UK gives it to anyone resident, no requirement to have ever worked or any intention to ever work. There are families of 3 generations that have never worked..... They enjoy an income, home & free health care.
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Old 21.04.2020, 21:48
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UK gives it to anyone resident, no requirement to have ever worked or any intention to ever work. There are families of 3 generations that have never worked..... They enjoy an income, home & free health care.
Most countries in Europe have a minimum income guaranteed by the state and universal health care. It doesn't mean you don't have to pay, it means that everyone will be treated regardless. Or in other words the medical act is not conditioned by having payed in the system.
I know, it sucks when people are not honest. But I have mixed feelings about private insurances. It works here because we're "rich". What do you think, can it work everywhere?
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Old 21.04.2020, 21:55
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Most countries in Europe have a minimum income guaranteed by the state and universal health care. It doesn't mean you don't have to pay, it means that everyone will be treated regardless. Or in other words the medical act is not conditioned by having payed in the system.
I know, it sucks when people are not honest. But I have mixed feelings about private insurances. It works here because we're "rich". What do you think, can it work everywhere?
The swiss system does appear to be a way the insurance companies can make money hand over fist.

And, what you said regarding universal healthcare.
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  #27253  
Old 22.04.2020, 02:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There are families of 3 generations that have never worked..... They enjoy an income, home & free health care.
Are you talking about trust fund kids again, or landed gentry?
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Old 22.04.2020, 10:58
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Are you talking about trust fund kids again, or landed gentry?
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The swiss system does appear to be a way the insurance companies can make money hand over fist.

And, what you said regarding universal healthcare.
Shows how much you know, the Swiss insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic insurance, they even give refunds if the took to much premium & claims were less.
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Are you talking about trust fund kids again, or landed gentry?
Nope as they usually go privately, in any case they will have paid a lot of money into the system.
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Shows how much you know, the Swiss insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic insurance, they even give refunds if the took to much premium & claims were less.
It is watched carefully, isn't it. I think given the history with silent accounts in the past, etc., there is a certain mindset of working hard to keep the credibility high. And also for people to not claim what they don't hve the right for.
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:19
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Shows how much you know, the Swiss insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic insurance, they even give refunds if the took to much premium & claims were less.
Meh. Never said I knew much. I don't like the Swiss system. Hence we no longer live there.
They certainly do ok on supplementary, which I had to take given a couple of conditions they deemed non-standard. As one was very common, was quite surprised.

All I know is I can get very good private healthcare - and Dental - for a lot less than 10 k a year here. And yes, I know, taxes, NI etc etc.
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:20
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Nope as they usually go privately, in any case they will have paid a lot of money into the system.
Not necessarily. And not if they need emergency / intensive care. That's the universal free NHS.

They can afford the really good lawyers and tax advisors... plus if it's inherited moolah, the offspring didn't pay anything, it's just always been paid for them. They'd have to do something to contribute to society in order to have personally paid in.
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Old 22.04.2020, 11:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Eh? You're equating a living wage with slavery and degradation?

You do understand what slavery is, yes? Essentially a subsuming of self? No rights. No protections. No ownership of your own body. You may find your analogy deliciously dramatic but it is certainly not accurate. IMO. Obvs. I'm not an economist. I do know that living on minimum wage stinks.
A Universal Basic Income would be modern slavery. I can think of little more degrading than being entirely dependent on the state for your existence. If one has no value then rights and protections soon become meaningless.

The only difference to the slave owners of old is that at least the slave owners got work out of their slaves. If you pay people money to sit around and do nothing, that's exactly what they will do!
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