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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #27261  
Old 22.04.2020, 10:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not necessarily. And not if they need emergency / intensive care. That's the universal free NHS.

They can afford the really good lawyers and tax advisors... plus if it's inherited moolah, the offspring didn't pay anything, it's just always been paid for them. They'd have to do something to contribute to society in order to have personally paid in.
As UK residents they will be liable to UK income tax on worldwide income & gains, trust fund kids receive their income as income that is fully taxable.

You are again talking in an authoritative manner without having any real idea of how the UK tax system works.
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  #27262  
Old 22.04.2020, 11:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As UK residents they will be liable to UK income tax on worldwide income & gains, trust fund kids receive their income as income that is fully taxable.

You are again talking in an authoritative manner without having any real idea of how the UK tax system works.
I know how the UK tax system works - I've never had a trust fund though, admittedly. I didn't eay they aren't liable for taxation. I said they hadn't actively contributed to the system.

Yep. They receive it. Don't earn it.

It is lovely you think I sound authoritative though.
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  #27263  
Old 22.04.2020, 11:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A Universal Basic Income would be modern slavery. I can think of little more degrading than being entirely dependent on the state for your existence. If one has no value then rights and protections soon become meaningless.

The only difference to the slave owners of old is that at least the slave owners got work out of their slaves. If you pay people money to sit around and do nothing, that's exactly what they will do!
This is still an obscene comparison and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

There's no need to get your knickers in a knot about UBI anyway. It'll never happen while folk like you keep voting the way they do - to maintain the "class" status quo etc

Your leap to this hypothetical person who is potentially on UBI as being consequently valueless speaks volumes about your world view. Well, the world view of your crafted persona. The air up there must be pretty thin, eh?
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  #27264  
Old 22.04.2020, 11:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Your leap to this hypothetical person who is potentially on UBI as being consequently valueless speaks volumes about your world view. Well, the world view of your crafted persona. The air up there must be pretty thin, eh?
The only value they have would be a vote.

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There's no need to get your knickers in a knot about UBI anyway. It'll never happen while folk like you keep voting the way they do - to maintain the "class" status quo etc
Amen!
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  #27265  
Old 22.04.2020, 12:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I know how the UK tax system works - I've never had a trust fund though, admittedly. I didn't eay they aren't liable for taxation. I said they hadn't actively contributed to the system.

Yep. They receive it. Don't earn it.

It is lovely you think I sound authoritative though.
Fund is liable to CGT with lower allowance than an individual. IHT is paid at 40% at the death of the life Tennant. All income received or not is liable to tax in the UK.

They pay the tax, it does not matter where the income came from.
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  #27266  
Old 22.04.2020, 14:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Fund is liable to CGT with lower allowance than an individual. IHT is paid at 40% at the death of the life Tennant. All income received or not is liable to tax in the UK.

They pay the tax, it does not matter where the income came from.
Whoosh.
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  #27267  
Old 22.04.2020, 14:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As UK residents they will be liable to UK income tax on worldwide income & gains, trust fund kids receive their income as income that is fully taxable.
.
The thing about trust funds kids is that their money don't come out of nowhere. There's an entire infrastructure to make those profits possible. If you're looking at taxation from this pov, then they are indeed taxed too little. It's a universal problem not necessarily country specific. While a low taxes system might encourage entrepreneurship as a rule, and I guess we all know it, it's always a difficult job to determine how much we should tax wealth in general.
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  #27268  
Old 22.04.2020, 15:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The thing about trust funds kids is that their money don't come out of nowhere. There's an entire infrastructure to make those profits possible. If you're looking at taxation from this pov, then they are indeed taxed too little. It's a universal problem not necessarily country specific. While a low taxes system might encourage entrepreneurship as a rule, and I guess we all know it, it's always a difficult job to determine how much we should tax wealth in general.
Thats why poor quality companies pay very high dividends as they know income trusts will be buyers & they are only interested in income & not capital preservation.

Taxation of trusts is actually worse than of an individual, the reason for a trust is to prevent the capital being wasted & control how the money is invested.. I can think of more than 1 person that does not believe their wife or children can look after a large capital sum if he were to die, so it gets put in trust for non existent great grandchildren & gives the income only to his wife & her death their children & then grandchildren. Expenses & 3 lots of 30% IHT will ensure there is almost nothing left for the great grand children.
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  #27269  
Old 22.04.2020, 15:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Right when I said this thread couldn't get any worse, now it's completely off topic. Might as well rename the title.
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  #27270  
Old 22.04.2020, 15:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nope as they usually go privately, in any case they will have paid a lot of money into the system.
Ah ha! A caveat!

If you said that some animals have four legs and a tail, and I asked if you were talking about cats, dogs, or horses, you'd answer...
"They have stripes!"
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  #27271  
Old 22.04.2020, 15:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You can't really see it like that though even during low unemployment there are easy to fill jobs and not easy to fill jobs and adjustments it takes...say lower number of children, schools opening fewer classes, teachers and edu admin retraining and loking for jobs elsewhere so it takes a while and there will be more of certain job seekers than others. Especially in a place where employment under 18yr and over 50 yrs is rough to find and where for each jobs you need very particular certificates and a particular language too. Sometimes languages and certifs are canton dependent, it reduces mobility and job chances. So low unemployment is a very particular balancing act here.
The economy is cyclical and there are times when it is difficult to find a job, even if you do tick all the right boxes. It is thus a good thing we have a safety net. But phases in which large numbers of people need to rely on it should be transitional, not permanent.

I'm not opposed to a basic income per se. I think it has some very real advantages, for example salary costs for employers can be reduced meaning more people get hired. It also takes much of the initial risk out of start ups meaning lots of people with good ideas who don't know if they can make them work can finally go out and try. It could lead to a golden age of entrepreneurship. Steve Jobs started Apple out of his parents' garage at a time he still lived with his parents and didn't pay rent. Not everybody is fortunate to have parents like that. A basic income can open that channel for many people like him.

But what I don't like is the way especially the political left are spinning the idea, predicting a future where most of us won't have jobs so we might as well get paid for doing nothing. That is defeatist, a waste of human potential, and ultimately untrue. It is a thinking that drags people down rather than raising them up.
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  #27272  
Old 22.04.2020, 15:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The economy is cyclical and there are times when it is difficult to find a job, even if you do tick all the right boxes. It is thus a good thing we have a safety net. But phases in which large numbers of people need to rely on it should be transitional, not permanent.

I'm not opposed to a basic income per se. I think it has some very real advantages, for example salary costs for employers can be reduced meaning more people get hired. It also takes much of the initial risk out of start ups meaning lots of people with good ideas who don't know if they can make them work can finally go out and try. It could lead to a golden age of entrepreneurship. Steve Jobs started Apple out of his parents' garage at a time he still lived with his parents and didn't pay rent. Not everybody is fortunate to have parents like that. A basic income can open that channel for many people like him.

But what I don't like is the way especially the political left are spinning the idea, predicting a future where most of us won't have jobs so we might as well get paid for doing nothing. That is defeatist, a waste of human potential, and ultimately untrue. It is a thinking that drags people down rather than raising them up.
I agree. And think your last paragraph is a direct consequence of your previous 2 paras, justifying the idea.

The thought of possibly having more Steve Jobs because we offer them cushier start might actually not give them the incentive to start, in the first place. Meritocracy is tough but motivating, I think. And I know all about human intrinsic motivation, to the smallest atom of it. It comes from one's own responsibility, conditions are secondary and come from the outside, extrinsically.

I also think that the loudest voices about wealth distribution will be those who aren't making the money (nor own) that needs to be redistributed, it frequently is that way.

The question of "how much will we tax them" has a perfect Swiss answer.
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  #27273  
Old 22.04.2020, 17:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Fund is liable to CGT with lower allowance than an individual. IHT is paid at 40% at the death of the life Tennant. All income received or not is liable to tax in the UK.

They pay the tax, it does not matter where the income came from.

Only a trust fund babe, or someone whose family has Money, would say that...

Why do you keep telling me about taxation in the UK? I know this stuff. My point was, to kind of follow a thread from yours is, that trust funds are not earned, they are bestowed/inherited. The beneficiary pays tax but the funds they pay the tax on have not been earned by them. Whatever they left with, after CGT, IHT etc ( and you're not telling me they won't have taken advantage of all kinds if fancy write-off footwork) is, essentially, free money. Money they, personally, have done nothing to earn. Apart from the being born thing.


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Whoosh.
If you say so.
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  #27274  
Old 22.04.2020, 17:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only value they have would be a vote.
So a person's inherent worth is directly proportionate to the job they do /the money they earn?

Not being snarky, actually, I'm trying to understand your absolutist reasoning.
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  #27275  
Old 22.04.2020, 17:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why do you keep telling me about taxation in the UK? I know this stuff. My point was, to kind of follow a thread from yours is, that trust funds are not earned, they are bestowed/inherited. The beneficiary pays tax but the funds they pay the tax on have not been earned by them. Whatever they left with, after CGT, IHT etc ( and you're not telling me they won't have taken advantage of all kinds if fancy write-off footwork) is, essentially, free money. Money they, personally, have done nothing to earn. Apart from the being born thing.
.
So what if it is inherited?

There are no fancy right off's, no free money.

The reason for a trust is to protect assets from divorce & spend thrift family members rather than saving tax.
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  #27276  
Old 22.04.2020, 18:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The reason for a trust is to protect assets from divorce & spend thrift family members rather than saving tax.
Not entirely true. A trust can be until the beneficiary reaches a specified 'age of maturity'. It can be used reduce liability. In the case of my former landlady, it was because her father didn't see her as intelligent enough to manager her own finances, to the point that even in her 60s, she had to ask the board of trustees for the money to buy a new sofa and to call out a plumber to her broken toilet, and all whilst claiming disability benefit and a mobility allowance for her husband who had bugger all wrong with him and freely admitted it was all a scam. But who am I to complain that someone living in a house worth over £750k which they own outright, was claiming over £250 per week in benefits whilst having two tenants in an annexe building and two lodgers in their home, all of which wasn't declared.
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  #27277  
Old 22.04.2020, 18:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I can think of more than 1 person that does not believe their wife or children can look after a large capital sum if he were to die, so it gets put in trust for non existent great grandchildren & gives the income only to his wife & her death their children & then grandchildren. Expenses & 3 lots of 30% IHT will ensure there is almost nothing left for the great grand children.
At least the rich end up poorer than their (fore)parents after 3 generations. (btw,it's just one cycle for people today and it's for the first time in modern history when folks around my age are poorer than their parents).
On a more serious note, not everyone will eat up all those money. If you raise spoiled rascals who never have to overcome anything that's what you get.
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  #27278  
Old 22.04.2020, 19:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not entirely true. A trust can be until the beneficiary reaches a specified 'age of maturity'. It can be used reduce liability. In the case of my former landlady, it was because her father didn't see her as intelligent enough to manager her own finances, to the point that even in her 60s, she had to ask the board of trustees for the money to buy a new sofa and to call out a plumber to her broken toilet, and all whilst claiming disability benefit and a mobility allowance for her husband who had bugger all wrong with him and freely admitted it was all a scam. But who am I to complain that someone living in a house worth over £750k which they own outright, was claiming over £250 per week in benefits whilst having two tenants in an annexe building and two lodgers in their home, all of which wasn't declared.
I did not realise you could get benefits with £750k assets, you learn something every day.
If Fraud was being committed I assume you informed the authorities & the person is now in prison.
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Old 22.04.2020, 19:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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At least the rich end up poorer than their (fore)parents after 3 generations. (btw,it's just one cycle for people today and it's for the first time in modern history when folks around my age are poorer than their parents).
On a more serious note, not everyone will eat up all those money. If you raise spoiled rascals who never have to overcome anything that's what you get.
No reason to be poorer than your parents, if you are thats probably because you have a job, rather than set up your own business.

I was earning twice as much as my father when I was 21, but then he wasted 50 years of his life campaigning against the Common Market / EU.
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Old 23.04.2020, 10:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So what if it is inherited?

There are no fancy right off's, no free money.

The reason for a trust is to protect assets from divorce & spend thrift family members rather than saving tax.
Inherited money is the very definition of free money, isn't it? Whatever is left after all the deductions is, simply, money that has been given/received and not earned.

No condemnation, we should all be so lucky. Because that's what it is: luck of the draw.
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