The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	Inherited money is the very definition of free money, isn't it? Whatever is left after all the deductions is, simply, money that has been given/received and not earned. No condemnation, we should all be so lucky. Because that's what it is: luck of the draw.

No more than an end of year bonus, the fact that say your father worked hard & left money to his children, whats the issue? Some people save & invest their money rather than spend it, people have a choice of what they do with their own money. You should have heard the outcry on FB from my left wing friends when the conservatives were going to increase the amount people needed to contribute to their own care, dubbed the 'death tax'.

For disclosure when my father died & I received nothing. At the time my assets were substantially greater than his so of absolutely no consequence either way.

An end of year bonus is absolutely tied up with earnings and targets etc. Not the same as inheriting. But... nevermind.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	An end of year bonus is absolutely tied up with earnings and targets etc. Not the same as inheriting. But... nevermind. I'm sorry for your loss.

I also believe that any care home fees should go against the person's estate if they have assets as it's a normal cost incurved whilst living. Having people leaving their kids 250k whilst have been given the same in care fees is indeed free money that I don't believe should be allowed.

Thank you.

[roegner]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I also believe that any care home fees should go against the person's estate if they have assets as it's a normal cost incurved whilst living. Having people leaving their kids 250k whilst have been given the same in care fees is indeed free money that I don't believe should be allowed. Thank you.

Is that the case here? In Germany you need to pay up for the parents up to a certain level. Way back my mom (in the Netherlands) had to pay the nursing home from her pension.



I recently checked a link on health insurance premiums in Switzerland and you could get a reduction even if you had 150k savings.....

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	roegner
	Is that the case here? In Germany you need to pay up for the parents up to a certain level. Way back my mom (in the Netherlands) had to pay the nursing home from her pension. I recently checked a link on health insurance premiums in Switzerland and you could get a reduction even if you had 150k savings.....

In France the children have to contribute if they are higher earners, I think this is correct way.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	No reason to be poorer than your parents, if you are thats probably because you have a job, rather than set up your own business. I was earning twice as much as my father when I was 21, but then he wasted 50 years of his life campaigning against the Common Market / EU.

Good for you, I mean wanting to do something on your own and not to depend on your father. Also, wise choice to focus on your life even if that meant business for you and not on politics. I have a vague feeling that many of those whom he opposed back then were busy taking advantages of the Common Market and now the same types of people are very pro-Brexit...
For me personally it's the other way around - my mom had/has her own company and I was always an employee (not hers, haha). For her it was a very logical choice, it made no sense to work for other people while she could do the same thing on her own. And much more profitable.
But letting our individual cases aside, I get your idea. It's not applicable to each case or situation I'm afraid and that wasn't my point anyway. Yes, I agree one can change certain things sometimes. But it takes a whole another level of motivation and hard work for some.

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I agree. And think your last paragraph is a direct consequence of your previous 2 paras, justifying the idea. The thought of possibly having more Steve Jobs because we offer them cushier start might actually not give them the incentive to start, in the first place. Meritocracy is tough but motivating, I think. And I know all about human intrinsic motivation, to the smallest atom of it. It comes from one's own responsibility, conditions are secondary and come from the outside, extrinsically. I also think that the loudest voices about wealth distribution will be those who aren't making the money (nor own) that needs to be redistributed, it frequently is that way. The question of "how much will we tax them" has a perfect Swiss answer.

The Swiss are by and large responsible and capable of putting the civic good before their own immediate interest. Thus in a vote they turned down a proposal to have more days off. They turned down a vote on basic income and they have turned down quite a few other bleed the rich and free money for all type initiatives. On the other hand they accepted the Minder initiative which was about transparency and fairness rather than about capping salaries as a matter of jealousy or principle. Contrary to what the opponenents of that initiative were predictiung, it has not damaged Switzerland's competitiveness, and Swiss companies can still attract good CEOs.

I think in many / most other countries, similar votes would have led to other results. Maybe the democratic and civic traditions of Switzerland show that with great responsibility also comes great restraint.

I don't necessarily agree that cushiness breeds laziness. Switzerland is a comparatively cofortable and cushy country. Education works. Opportunities are fairly well distributed. Different social strata mix much more than in other countries and there is a lot of social mobility. People with ideas and who want to innovate and start a new business can find the space to do so, even if they are poor. Yet all this works without huge amounts of free money being thrown around to oil the cogs. And this is not because of any government policy but because people voluntarily create a society that works.

How can you transfer that sort of civic culture to less functional countries?

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	So a person's inherent worth is directly proportionate to the job they do /the money they earn? Not being snarky, actually, I'm trying to understand your absolutist reasoning.

I didn't mean that, rather that is how the governments would view people who receive a universal basic income.

Says who? The Republicans in the US and the Tories in the UK- perhaps. The fact you expressed it probably indicates what your attitude would be.
But it does not have to be so.

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I didn't mean that, rather that is how the governments would view people who receive a universal basic income.

At the risk of sounding incredibly cynical, I imagine governments by and large think mostly in terms of division anyway: folk like them and everyone else. Quite a sobering thought.

Would a UBI drive up a minimum wage or merely drive up taxation?

Thanks for responding.

[Raffles]

Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change.
Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses.
And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year.
I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress.
Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, relieve anything unjust or oppressive.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Raffles
	Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change. Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses. And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year. I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress. Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, to relieve. Anything unjust or oppressive.

UK doesn't need foreigners, doesn't need foreigners, doesn't need foreigners, repeat the mantra and every problem will go away. I wonder what constructions or elderly care sectors will have to say about it. But I do hope they'll reject anyone, lock themselves on that island, finish Brexit and start the party.
Trump will save the Queen!

	Quote:	Raffles
	Boris Johnson is coming back to take hold of the reins on Monday, let us see what, if any of his pre Corona assumptions change. Now that he knows first hand the real risk of life, will he get things moving quicker for the masses. And will the care he got from non British nurses change some of the points system coming into place. They've also had to fly in farm workers while he was in isolation, how are they going to meet their points system criteria next year. I can't wait to see his first address, or will he redress. Revise. Set right, make amends, remedy, relieve anything unjust or oppressive.

I reckon it'll be one of those speeches you end up watching from between your fingers.

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	In France the children have to contribute if they are higher earners, I think this is correct way.

In Switzerland, it is very much, as most things, C/Kantonal. My neighbour in NE from Bern, who mother was in a care home in Bern- was so worried he would have to sel his own family home to pay for her care when her own money run out. 'Fortunately' she died before that happened. In NE, people have to use savings, pensions and proceeds from house, and then the Canton picks up the bill when all but pensions run out- but leave a sum for children to share. From top of head, I think it is about 25.000 each, to be shared with children. My parents' savings and proceeds of the family home all went to pay for their care. Same for my mil in the UK. I agree with FMF.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Yet all this works without huge amounts of free money being thrown around to oil the cogs.

All this works because huge amounts of free money is not being thrown around to oil the cogs. This supports what I said.

Not only restraint. It breeds pride and honor. And there are other motivation levels than cash, cushy or assurance. There are certain early taught competences, self reliance and self sufficiency that are needed more than top down provided security or cash. In fact, there is very little top down here traditionally hence the self reliance and self sustainability skills. You account to yourself for the situation you are in.. Mix with some risk, some intellectual curiosity and there you go.

	Quote:
	How can you transfer that sort of civic culture to less functional countries?

You mean individual, personal responsability so the whole collective can grow without worrying about selfishness? Schools. Schools not compensating for the role of family or a wider community. Here the school doesn't. There is no free lunch here. It gets loaned.

The collectiveness exists here big time, I think it is because self reliance makes peple less worried about themselves and they can worry about others and help them. Especially now in this crisis people pull together. Everybody hangs at their window at 9pm here and appreciates the heros and for a bit of quasi social life but mosf of all, to check if everyone else is doing ok.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:
	In Switzerland, it is very much, as most things, C/Kantonal. My neighbour in NE from Bern, who mother was in a care home in Bern- was so worried he would have to sel his own family home to pay for her care when her own money run out. 'Fortunately' she died before that happened. In NE, people have to use savings, pensions and proceeds from house, and then the Canton picks up the bill when all but pensions run out- but leave a sum for children to share. From top of head, I think it is about 25.000 each, to be shared with children. My parents' savings and proceeds of the family home all went to pay for their care. Same for my mil in the UK. I agree with FMF.

My Mother has been having 24/7 care at home since 2011, costs about £90,000 a year, other household costs, food, physio etc. run at least another £30,000. The equity in the house will be exhausted in about 6 years, possibly sooner if house prices fall. It's her money so her choice how she spends it, she has not had a cold or cough in 5 years. Had she moved to a nursing home I am sure she would have died long ago due to lower quality of life & no wish to live.

Agreed. My MIL suffered from dementia- so the choice of care at home run out fast. My father looked after my mum for many years, with outside help- but when he became ill himself and had to go into hospital, leaving my mum at home just was not an option, as blind and wheelchair bound. She returned home when he was better, and we stepped up outside help- but when he was hospitalised the second time- there was no option. That is when we decided to move here to help- but it was all too late. I have no complaints whatsoever about their money going towards their care.

[roegner]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	My Mother has been having 24/7 care at home since 2011, costs about £90,000 a year, other household costs, food, physio etc. run at least another £30,000. The equity in the house will be exhausted in about 6 years, possibly sooner if house prices fall. It's her money so her choice how she spends it, she has not had a cold or cough in 5 years. Had she moved to a nursing home I am sure she would have died long ago due to lower quality of life & no wish to live.

We had private care for my mother in law, money well spent, I agree with you FMF. It was also much easier for her (I think) to stay in her own home, with her own things, her own garden, even if she could not enjoy that so much later on.

My mom was in a nursing home in the Netherlands, which she enjoyed as they arranged nice outings and things.

Either way is not cheap, but then it´s your parents!

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:
	Would a UBI drive up a minimum wage or merely drive up taxation? Thanks for responding.

Both probably, and then it would fail. They did an experiment in Finland I believe, and that failed too.

[amogles]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Both probably, and then it would fail. They did an experiment in Finland I believe, and that failed too.

This is my fear exactly.

Basic income is at its core a good idea. But of you let the socialist types run away with it, it has all the potential to be a huge train crash.