The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[me.anon]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I had to groan you for the racial slur. China are about to learn that actions have consequences, the EU should want to be on the right side of this upcoming confrontation.

Yeah. Right. So you maintain a constant anti-China diatribe in multiple threads on this forum, never missing an opportunity to paste in, verbatim from sections of the main stream media, even the widest allegations against China and the Chinese, then appear to take umbrage at an imagined racial slur of which, anyway, you would not have been the target, and follow it us by some obsequious apology for groaning at me.

Anyway, on the theme of racism, it seems the this is perfectly in vogue. It is only important to select the right target. Russophobia is positively encouraged, now Sinophobia. Especially if is useful for the internal politics to have an external bogeyman. Who next ?

On the subject of where the blame lies for the pandemic and its repercussions, what is clear also is that in-actions also have consequences.
When China was building huge hospital complexes in a matter of days, the rest of the world was talking about seasonal flu, herd immunity etc. And what were their [the rest of the world's] intelligence services reporting at the time ? That it was all a publicity stunt without a hint that it should be taken seriously? It may well be that the we will see the presentation of the same sort of "intelligence" against China that was used to underpin the Russophobia campaign, which was ultimately demonstrated to be a thoroughly bogus concoction, and I agree that EU should be on the "right side" of that. I cannot see though that China can be any more responsible the consequences of the pandemic that the US would be if, say, Yellowstone Caldera blows up in a big way rendering a significant part of the planet uninhabitable.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I had to groan you for the racial slur. China are about to learn that actions have consequences, the EU should want to be on the right side of this upcoming confrontation.

EU that you wouldn't give any credit to? That EU?

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I had to groan you for the racial slur. China are about to learn that actions have consequences, the EU should want to be on the right side of this upcoming confrontation.

You obviously meant the UK, since big trading blocks are able to take care of themselves, were as want be junior partners begging for trade deals... a different matter. Will be amusing to see the BREXIT dance over the next year or two.

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You obviously meant the UK, since big trading blocks are able to take care of themselves, were as want be junior partners begging for trade deals... a different matter. Will be amusing to see the BREXIT dance over the next year or two.

Will your grand trading block just folded under the slightest pressure from Beijing. Was that a demonstration of who is the junior partner in that relationship or just an example of the EU not being fit for purpose?

[amogles]

	Quote:
	By dupe I mean a current or previously banned member creating a duplicate account and posting as a (remarkably clued up) newbie.

If somebody was banned, maybe ..

But a current poster? What's the value of having two accounts just to post the same stuff twice?

If I had a second account, I would create a totally different persona with radically different points of view. Then I could troll people from both sides simultaneously.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Well yes, you have a point. But when the person can't be bothered, but at the same time turns the question into something very unpleasant and personal - then it does become ... both. Why the ''Except I did not, Odile, and getting tired of your campaign ... People will answer to those who argue in good faith.' My question was very simple, not an argument. I still don't think anyone here understood the statement made at the time. A very different kettle of fish indeed and totally un-necessary- why oh why?. Perhaps best to keep away.

The degree to which you keep insisting is remarkable.

Can you honestly say that you always answered every question that anybody on the EF asked you?

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	We had that too, what amogles mentioned that happened in Germany.. People active in anti nazi dissent turning into post WWII commie colaborators and eventually contributing to the same terror that they initially fought against, just under a different name. I understand the twist as an unethical but still a mode of Darwinian self preservation and survival. Yet, part of me finds it completely incomprehensible. Tragic cases of confirmation bias.

I think it was more than Darwinian self preservation.

Some such people were not fighting against the nazis because they had a problem with the terror or the injustice, but they were fighting against the nazis because they wanted to be in power themselves.

In the years prior to the nazis coming to power in Germany there was an open rivalry between the Nazis and the Communists, sometimes they even fought open street battles. They assasinated one another's leaders. They played dirty games. They undermined democracy and demonstrated their power through thug rule. It wasn't all about good guys vs bad guys, but in many cases it was bad guys murdering one another. It was just a matter of chance the nazis won and came to power. Had some details in history turned out differently it could just as well have been the communists who could have come to power. What would have happened then is a matter of speculation.

Many of these communists went into hiding or pretended to support the nazis while biding their time. When the war was over all they needed do was come out of hiding. Decency never came into it.

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Not for me it does not. Someone has just explained past events- when I was not active here on EF.

Well then how about starting a new thread and discussing it in detail there, in an open minded and non personal way.

[roegner]

Can we maybe get back on track here please?

	Quote:	amogles
	If somebody was banned, maybe .. But a current poster? What's the value of having two accounts just to post the same stuff twice? If I had a second account, I would create a totally different persona with radically different points of view. Then I could troll people from both sides simultaneously.

So would I!

[Full Circle]

	Quote:	Belgianmum
	Ah but if they’d been here longer they’d know the history and wouldn’t be so quick to make bullying accusations.

I call it how I see it.
What else do you call it when a group mobs one person?

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I'll make it more clear for you to see what I was trying to say then: you said it's not polite to ask the same thing repeteadly. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Correct.

	Quote:	greenmount
	If it's not polite to ask the same thing a few times, then my obviously rhetorical question was - what is polite after all.

Rhetorical questions don't expect an answer. Which begs the question why you posted that at all.

	Quote:	greenmount
	Let's make a list with impolite and polite things on internet fora. But I'll give you just a couple of examples. What about insisting to impose one's views maybe? I personally think it's impolite, others might see it differently. Pretending one is only here to support a balanced discussion then turning the thread into something that has nothing to do anymore with the original topic? I think it is impolite too. The point is - if people want to have the upper hand in so-called internet discussions, they should apply to themselves first whatever they ask from others. If you want others to be receptive and open to your ideas, it might be helpful to be receptive and open too. Respectful. Arrogance doesn't "ease" any discussion. Telling people how to react even less so.

Not sure how to understand that, whether you're addressing me individually with it or whether it's meant in a generic sense. Can you clarify, are you saying I'm telling other people what to do? If not, who does or just did?

[Viclajina]

Well, this thread seems to have gone waaaay off the original question.
Having worked all over Europe I really don’t think the Brits have too much to worry about. Not a representative sample..just one gals opinion.
But then again I confess to being an Anglophile and am also influenced by my dad a US Colonel ( retired) who was always hugely complimentary about British soldiers and their capabilities. He wasn’t too impressed with the continental Europeans in that respect and when I see the Swiss ‘soldiers’ at Zurich main station going home to see mom and dad for the weekend I am inclined to see his point.

	Quote:	Viclajina
	Well, this thread seems to have gone waaaay off the original question. Having worked all over Europe I really don’t think the Brits have too much to worry about. Not a representative sample..just one gals opinion. But then again I confess to being an Anglophile and am also influenced by my dad a US Colonel ( retired) who was always hugely complimentary about British soldiers and their capabilities. He wasn’t too impressed with the continental Europeans in that respect and when I see the Swiss ‘soldiers’ at Zurich main station going home to see mom and dad for the weekend I am inclined to see his point.

I'm struggling to see what Swiss soldiers have even remotely to do with the EU.

Or indeed what the whole of your post remotely adds to the debate here.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	Viclajina
	Having worked all over Europe I really don’t think the Brits have too much to worry about.

Really you don't think give up all of your trade agreements, plus access to sell your financial services heading into probably the worst recession in a 100 years, is not something to be concerned about?

	Quote:	Viclajina
	when I see the Swiss ‘soldiers’ at Zurich main station going home to see mom and dad for the weekend I am inclined to see his point.

I don't see how it is relevant to this argument, but Google militia before start coming out with these types to statement, it will save your embarrassment.

[curley]

My agenda said "Brexit" yesterday. And I forgot why, LOL. Was it supposed to happen May 14th? Did it happen?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Viclajina
	Well, this thread seems to have gone waaaay off the original question. Having worked all over Europe I really don’t think the Brits have too much to worry about. Not a representative sample..just one gals opinion. But then again I confess to being an Anglophile and am also influenced by my dad a US Colonel ( retired) who was always hugely complimentary about British soldiers and their capabilities. He wasn’t too impressed with the continental Europeans in that respect and when I see the Swiss ‘soldiers’ at Zurich main station going home to see mom and dad for the weekend I am inclined to see his point.

I think "going home to see mom and dad for the weekend" are key words here. This place thankgod hasn't been and isn't in the situation to have the need for personnel to perform like soldiers at war. It is unfair to judge them on the experiences of places that are worse off in that aspect. It is not any lack of professionalism if society makes it so good and cushy for them. I am grateful for that because the society makes it so good for all of us, not just soldiers. Plus know this perceived lack of professionalism really isn't the case in other areas. Just wanted to say that without making any reflections about British soldiers and their capabilities.

[amogles]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I think "going home to see mom and dad for the weekend" are key words here. This place thankgod hasn't been and isn't in the situation to have the need for personnel to perform like soldiers at war. It is unfair to judge them on the experiences of places that are worse off in that aspect. It is not any lack of professionalism if society makes it so good and cushy for them. I am grateful for that because the society makes it so good for all of us, not just soldiers. Plus know this perceived lack of professionalism really isn't the case in other areas. Just wanted to say that without making any reflections about British soldiers and their capabilities.

Exactly, in Britain soldiers do not typically wear their uniforms while off duty. So when British soldiers catch the train to go home for the weekend, or pop into the pub while waiting for the train, you probably wouldn't recognize them as such. Neither do they take their rifles and kit with them.

The reason soldiers get to take their uniforms, rifles and kit home is that the Swiss army is conceived as a citizen milita. This again has to do with the democratic roots of Swiss society, in which all power ultimately lies in the hand of the people. They don't stop being soldiers the moment they step outside the door of the barracks.

In Britain, which has a thorougly different history to Switzerland, the army is organized differently. The comparison thus doesn't work if you ignore the bigger picture.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	Exactly, in Britain soldiers do not typically wear their uniforms while off duty. So when British soldiers catch the train to go home for the weekend, or pop into the pub while waiting for the train, you probably wouldn't recoignize them as such. Neither do they take their rifles and kit with them. The reason soldiers get to take their uniforms, rifles and kit home is that the Swiss army is conceived as a citizen milita. This again has to do with the democratic roots of Swiss society, in which all power ultimately lies in the hand of the people. In Britain, which has a thorougly different history to Switzerland, the army is organized differently. The comparison thus doesn't work if you ignore the bigger picture.

Yeah, something of this sort of reasoning. It is like that with many things. A uniform elsewhere would also imply active hours of duty. A friend in the US drives to work in his hospital uniform, while when I was an ER nurse I couldn't be caught outside of the hospital grounds wearing my even non sterile uniform because I'd be considered on duty and made to follow certain protocols. Has nothing to do with competence but more with expectations of these official protocols that come with changing one's role the min you put the uniform on. And sterile uniform brought naturally different protocol, too.

Soldiers apply professionalism in particular protocol the same way everywhere, me thinks, but not sure. Like in some dictator regimes one basically wears uniforms that represents status (more than protocols, they get slack cut, no?) all the time.

Going back to the UK, the thread and Covid19 crisis, I think British NHS, army and whoever was mobilized will change status, role, protocols, too...and people's expectation. I hope they get paid better, they worked and are working so hard.

Agree with amogles, can't compare a professional army as in the UK, and a mainly conscirpted/volunteer one. Just plain silly.