The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[marton]

	Quote:	amogles
	er, no. The Russians took out everything they could. They went into factories and dismantled machines and sent them back to Russia. They ripped out railway lines and sent the tracks back to Russia. They seized cattle and harvests and sent that back to Russia. They even kept many of their German POWs and made them work in Russian factories well into the early 1950s. OK, East Germany got some token gifts in return, mostly tanks and uniforms and things, but all the stuff that was taken needed to be replaced and while West Germany boomed economically in the 1950s, thanks in part to aid from the USA. East Germany was essentially still in survival mode and trying to mend stuff they didn't have. Per capita, the East Germans paid far more than the West Germans in terms of war tribute and the consequences thereof.

Do you have a reputable source for your claim "the East Germans paid far more than the West Germans"?

The West also dismantled and shipped home most of the industrial infrastructure of West Germany, no different than the Russians.

Additionally, German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor in France, the UK, Belgium, and also in Germany in the U.S run "Military Labor Service Units".
Also remember the US only reached the moon on the back of German rocket scientists

[amogles]

	Quote:	3Wishes
	I think it's more like this: no one wants to pay higher prices, which is what would need to happen if more was produced within the UK and people were paid a living wage for their work. Bargain prices come with a price, so to speak.

In some industries this is true. But in some cases price is not the main driver. People still buy German cars for example. At the high end of the market of course there may be other factors, and people pay for the brand and lifestyle, and will sometimes gladly pay whatever the manufacturer charges. But the German car industry is not all about high end super expensive stuff for the spoilt kids of oil sheiks. Probably that's just a minuscule fraction of the total market. Germany still makes plenty of low end and even some somewhat tacky cars too, sold into segments that are competing head on with cars made in much cheaper countries.

It's all about decent engineering, building a reputation, taking care of your customers and having a long term strategy rather than following every new fad.

[3Wishes]

	Quote:	amogles
	In some industries this is true. But in some cases price is not the main driver. People still buy German cars for example. At the high end of the market of course there may be other factors, and people pay for the brand and lifestyle, and will sometimes gladly pay whatever the manufacturer charges. But the German car industry is not all about high end super expensive stuff for the spoilt kids of oil sheiks. Probably that's just a minuscule fraction of the total market. Germany still makes plenty of low end and even some somewhat tacky cars too, sold into segments that are competing head on with cars made in much cheaper countries. It's all about decent engineering, building a reputation, taking care of your customers and having a long term strategy rather than following every new fad.

I agree, but think of how many parts that go into those cars are made in China or other low-wage countries. If you made the same parts in Germany, they'd cost more meaning the end product would cost more if the producer still wanted the same rate of profit.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	The UK is far wealthier than Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain for a start. UK will thrive without the handcuffs of the EU & the additional debts caused by CV

I could have agreed some time ago and I know where you're coming from, but reality had already proved, corona times more than ever, that wealth is a very relative thing and we can't function just by ourselves. Autarchic systems are somehow appealing though, autonomy and absolute independence at all costs, too.

What you may see as handcuffs were usually doubled by advantages really hard to object to. Everything has a price. I think we need to rethink the economic model within EU, and really badly and sooner than later. I am a EU citizen and directly and very interested in this subject. I'm not interfering here just for the sake of the debate btw. I am not anti-EU, but not pro-EU at all costs either, I am pro- a better EU.
Anyways, overlooking each country's potential and investing so little in fields that need investments so much was such a big mistake. There were a lot of catastrophic financial decisions and gambling with contributors' money because of the pressure that certain business groups have exercised. I can understand certain resentments, coming from both richer and poorer countries. I think we need to go back (historically) a bit and see where there have been committed all those mistakes that are the cause of current problems.

I know that EU as an economic block is a serious competitor that needs to be eliminated by certain interests, let's be very honest about it. Debating in good faith on the internet is very difficult. I know most people's here positions and can sympathise with some. You're one of the contributors whose opinions on economies I value, though I rarely agree with you.

[TonyClifton]

It seems whenever push comes to shove the EU manages to lose its spine. Actions like this also put a big dent in the argument that we need the EU to stand up to China and the US!

EU ‘watered down’ report on Chinese disinformation about Covid-19

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...about-covid-19

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	marton
	Do you have a reputable source for your claim "the East Germans paid far more than the West Germans"? The West also dismantled and shipped home most of the industrial infrastructure of West Germany, no different than the Russians. Additionally, German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor in France, the UK, Belgium, and also in Germany in the U.S run "Military Labor Service Units". Also remember the US only reached the moon on the back of German rocket scientists

West Germany was a free country. East Germany was a vassal state of the USSR until 30 years ago. I think it is fair to say that East Germans paid much more, in terms of money but also in terms of freedom.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It seems whenever push comes to shove the EU manages to lose its spine. Actions like this also put a big dent in the argument that we need the EU to stand up to China and the US! EU ‘watered down’ report on Chinese disinformation about Covid-19 https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...about-covid-19

I am glad you posted this. I saw it reported yesterday in Euronews and NYT, it is in line with the criticism towards the WHO for their slow action of early Covid19 days, especially towards how late the pandemics was officially declared. I do not think you can officially congratulate a country (which WHO did) that silences its own doctors when they warn the entire world. They warned when there was still time and some lost their lives, like many health care professionals until this day. They were right. Their government wasn't. People know no matter how watered down the reports get.

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	West Germany was a free country. East Germany was a vassal state of the USSR until 30 years ago. I think it is fair to say that East Germans paid much more, in terms of money but also in terms of freedom.

West Germany wasn't entirely free, though - they definitely were more free than the DDR was from the USSR, but there was (and still is to some degree) quite some influence from the Western Allied powers upon the BRD up to the 4+2 treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...ect_to_Germany

[marton]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	I am glad you posted this. I saw it reported yesterday in Euronews and NYT, it is in line with the criticism towards the WHO for their slow action of early Covid19 days, especially towards how late the pandemics was officially declared. I do not think you can officially congratulate a country (which WHO did) that silences its own doctors when they warn the entire world. They warned when there was still time and some lost their lives, like many health care professionals until this day. They were right. Their government wasn't. People know no matter how watered down the reports get.

Again, the rules are that WHO can only declare a pandemic when they get a consensus from their members.

[amogles]

	Quote:	YuropFlyer
	West Germany wasn't entirely free, though - they definitely were more free than the DDR was from the USSR, but there was (and still is to some degree) quite some influence from the Western Allied powers upon the BRD up to the 4+2 treaty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...ect_to_Germany

On a governmental level, the allies kept Germany on a leash, a short one at times but most of the time a very long one. But yes, a leash is a leash. But with all things being so intertwined, I think no country was genuinely free then (and it isn't better today). But on a personal level freedom in West Germany was just about as good as it could get in most respects. As long as you didn't want to be a teacher or a postman while being a card-carrying communist...

I think in some respects Germany today is more restrictive than West Germany in the 1980s ...

[YuropFlyer]

	Quote:	amogles
	On a governmental level, the allies kept Germany on a leash, a short one at times but most of the time a very long one. But yes, a leash is a leash. But with all things being so intertwined, I think no country was genuinely free then (and it isn't better today). But on a personal level freedom in West Germany was just about as good as it could get in most respects. As long as you didn't want to be a teacher or a postman while being a card-carrying communist... I think in some respects Germany today is more restrictive than West Germany in the 1980s ...

That's true to a point. But WGermany, for example, couldn't have left NATO like France did. And had they voted for a much lefter SPD, I wonder if the Western Allies wouldn't have intervented. But yes, on a personal level, obviously you had much more freedom (albeit with quite a "Gschmäckle", since many former nazis were allowed to re-join politics, or even "Organisation Gehlen", which was literally a re-branded nazi spy organisation) in the BRD compared to the DDR.

I'd say straight after re-unification you probably had the most freedom, but it's quite difficult to measure it. For each and every person, freedom is something different.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	amogles
	On a governmental level, the allies kept Germany on a leash, a short one at times but most of the time a very long one. But yes, a leash is a leash. But with all things being so intertwined, I think no country was genuinely free then (and it isn't better today). But on a personal level freedom in West Germany was just about as good as it could get in most respects. As long as you didn't want to be a teacher or a postman while being a card-carrying communist... I think in some respects Germany today is more restrictive than West Germany in the 1980s ...

The restrictions or dependencies are valid for more places than Germany, actually. Watered down reports, how cutely put, are booked by "reputation brokers" (I may coin that later ).

	Quote:
	What exactly do you mean by this? If you don't respond then, in good faith, I'll have to draw my own conclusions.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what Musicchick meant by "people will respond in good faith".


My current interpretation is that she is only willing to engage with a select few who don't question or rock her posts.

[greenmount]

	Quote:
	I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what Musicchick meant by "people will respond in good faith". My current interpretation is that she is only willing to engage with a select few who don't question or rock her posts.

I am not because I know the answer but am too polite to start this discussion again. I think MC will have to live with the idea that people have different opinions on pretty much everything and double standards are not considered good moderating practices anywhere, neither on EF nor on any other discussion board. By many. Or most. That's why people left. That's why we keep having these circular arguments to no avail.

At least let's agree that some or most discussions don't have to end in a consensus or in a sort of bargain - I agree with you a little if you agree with me a little. We don't have to vote on anything here. If I find or think something is really wrong or false I'll say so and won't engage with people who're trying to prove me that black is white and vice-versa.
Speaking of "engaging" with people, see, we can all learn something...

[amogles]

	Quote:
	I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what Musicchick meant by "people will respond in good faith". My current interpretation is that she is only willing to engage with a select few who don't question or rock her posts.

I think you are totally mis-reading MC. I think she is totally open to controversy and actively seeks out, encourages, and engages with diverging opinions. She doesn't at all want people to agree with her all the time.

In doing that she does occasionally stir up a hornet's nest and gets more of a backlash than she was expecting. But to be able to seek out and stir up hormet's nests you must first of all be open to controversy rather than to unanimous agreement.

[Full Circle]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I think MC will have to live with the idea that people have different opinions on pretty much everything

Agreed, some people really do need to learn to live with this idea.

I do think what MusicChick meant was quite clear. Rude, unfair, but clear.

However, I still have no idea what she meant with the comment she originally made about universal wage - no idea whatsoever. Did anyone understand what was meant? What I don't understand at all, is why refuse to give an explanation re that original comment- to anyone? A quick answer would have stopped this conversation immediately, or just led to a response in a normal and fair way- instead of leading to all this. Totally un-necessary and counter-productive.

So, simply back to the initial conversation- without blame, criticism or 'campaign' (whatever that means) - what was meant by
''Well, it can work. But nothing else will' re universal wage? Simple question.

[amogles]

	Quote:	YuropFlyer
	That's true to a point. But WGermany, for example, couldn't have left NATO like France did. And had they voted for a much lefter SPD, I wonder if the Western Allies wouldn't have intervented. But yes, on a personal level, obviously you had much more freedom (albeit with quite a "Gschmäckle", since many former nazis were allowed to re-join politics, or even "Organisation Gehlen", which was literally a re-branded nazi spy organisation) in the BRD compared to the DDR. I'd say straight after re-unification you probably had the most freedom, but it's quite difficult to measure it. For each and every person, freedom is something different.

Plenty of former nazis came to terms with the SED too and mumbled their mea culpas, changed their uniforms and continued to do the same thing. Chameleons are survivors.

A friend of mine once said something like, "die Parteien und politsichen Farben wechseln, die Amstinhaber bleiben".

The old DDR even had a special organization whose job it was to look after turncoat nazis, protect them from discrimination and provide them wih political representation. The NDPD. All old nazis had to do was say they were sorry and how much they liked Socialism and they were in the club. The BRD never had anything comparable AFAIK.

	Quote:	amogles
	I think you are totally mis-reading MC. I think she is totally open to controversy and actively seeks out, encourages, and engages with diverging opinions. She doesn't at all want people to agree with her all the time. In doing that she does occasionally stir up a hornet's nest and gets more of a backlash than she was expecting. But to be able to seek out and stir up hormet's nests you must first of all be open to controversy rather than to unanimous agreement.

I don't think I am. I understand she's actively encouraging etc.... but to post stuff that just doesn't make sense (I guess it's an English competency fail on several levels) and not provide clarification when asked is just rude.

I notice she's happy for you to answer for her

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:
	I won't think I am. I understand she's actively encouraging etc.... but to post stuff that just doesn't make sense (I guess it's an English competency fail on several levels) and not provide clarification when asked is just rude. I notice she's happy for you to answer for her

That’s it. Posting controversial stuff to be ‘edgy’ and stir things up is fair enough. We all know that she likes to play that game.

Posting stuff that makes no sense and the categorically refusing to clarify when questioned is just plain ignorant.