The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Ireland just going along with what Germany and France want is more of a surprise given how badly they've done out of this "deal". I'm sure they'll change tune, no doubt when it's far too late, once the EU really start going after Ireland over her tax laws.

So far, Eire has unconditional EU support WRT the Good Friday Agreement, that's worth much more than a few billions they might have been able to save by playing tough. Anything even remotely resembling the Troubles is likely to cost manyfold that as every 1% of GDP drop is a loss of $4bln per year, for each year after that drop happened.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	It's bound to happen, making tax 'fair' by reducing competition, blame it on the lefties.

I'll play a little the devil's advocate role here....

Instead of blaming the lefties, wouldn't be better to analyse the reasons for which it is thought by some that it would be better to have a common fiscal policy?

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I'll play a little the devil's advocate role here.... Instead of blaming the lefties, wouldn't be better to analyse the reasons for which it is thought by some to have a common fiscal policy?

Competition is very important as it gives choice, preventing choice is the start of Communism, expect other restrictions to follow.

The majority of people do not 'cover their costs' taxation wise, clearly they want other wealthier people in other countries to pay more on their behalf for their benefit. Clearly that is popular for the majority who pay too little for the services they receive.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I'll play a little the devil's advocate role here.... Instead of blaming the lefties, wouldn't be better to analyse the reasons for which it is thought by some that it would be better to have a common fiscal policy?

If the fiscal policy is fair and well designed, then yes, absolutely. The problem is that member countries have totally different visions on taxation.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	If the fiscal policy is fair and well designed, then yes, absolutely. The problem is that member countries have totally different visions on taxation.

Clearly a totally unacceptable policy in CH where every village in every Canton competes on tax & services, then 26 Cantons compete with each other as well.
Choice is a good thing

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Clearly a totally unacceptable policy in CH where every village in every Canton competes on tax & services, then 26 Cantons compete with each other as well. Choice is a good thing

Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

I wouldn't discount the retirement westerners will fancy spending there and Hungary, Romania, etc.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Clearly a totally unacceptable policy in CH where every village in every Canton competes on tax & services, then 26 Cantons compete with each other as well. Choice is a good thing

Yes, competition is good, but only within limits. Once differences are big enough to create a self-reinforcing spiral there's no longer any real competing. And you will usually need balancing mechanisms, there's no reason why Zug and Schwyz should be able to send their students to Zürich for free, that would be outright parasitic.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

yeah, I can agree some countries seem less attractive from this point of view, but I would keep a low taxation to attract more investments. Bg for instance has a great touristic potential, why not develop this sector and keep the workforce there. It already happened to a certain degree, but you get the idea.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Yes, competition is good, but only within limits. Once differences are big enough to create a self-reinforcing spiral there's no longer any real competing.

what does 'competition' mean actually, in a worldwide system where tariffs apply for imports and exports- and where some countries have very poor workers'r right, salaries, agricultural standards, bio safety and husbandry norms, and complicated international supply chains? Just nonsense.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

Whilst it has the lowest headline tax rate it covers world wide income & there is CGT on investments. There does not seem to be a tax free threshold unlike in the UK (£125000) There are plenty of places you could live in Europe & pay less tax, it depends on individual circumstances.

[amogles]

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

Plenty right now.

Ask the real estate people what the Black Sea coastline is doing.

Right now as I am writing this the EF is even serving me an ad.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	Whilst it has the lowest headline tax rate it covers world wide income & there is CGT on investments. There does not seem to be a tax free threshold unlike in the UK (£125000) There are plenty of places you could live in Europe & pay less tax, it depends on individual circumstances.

£125k tax free? Despite the weather and the incompetent politicians, I'm moving to the UK!

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	It's really an odd one. It was clear that France and Germany were so keen to force a deal. After all, their banks are the most exposed were the Euro to fail, and the Euro would very likely fail if any of the Club Med countries were to go bust. Not to mention they will receive much of the money back in any case one way or another! The "Frugal Four" arguments were also expected (anyone would think that the Dutch don't like to part with their money ). On a more serious note, it does seem strange that money is willingly sent from North to South in the absence of any evidence that they'll change their ways down there. Once all the money has been spent, which it undoubtedly will, then they'll just be back to square one . As I think I already said, it's a completely unsustainable approach which has just plastered over the cracks. It's no coincidence that an Italexit Political party was launched this week. Ireland just going along with what Germany and France want is more of a surprise given how badly they've done out of this "deal". I'm sure they'll change tune, no doubt when it's far too late, once the EU really start going after Ireland over her tax laws. What this has done is shown how the Brexit vote was important and done at the right time. Whilst the EU bailout deal is not the "Hamiltonian Moment" that some have declared, it is without doubt a step in the direction of full Federalism and all without a single vote being cast. A Federal Europe by the back door as I believe Margaret Thatcher once said.

It is amazing after so much discussion in this thread that people still do not understand the EU processes.

The European Parliament, the union’s legislative body, still has to pass the measure.
The weak democratic language may lead to its defeat, which could mean the EU has to go back to square one with a spiraling economic disaster even closer.

[JackieH]

Yes, could anyone explain - I certainly missed that one

[TonyClifton]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I'm with the "frugal" ones here. I can't stand the fact that there are no conditions for the EU money, as a result of negotiations and imposed by certain countries. Instead of finding a way to give those much needed money directly to projects or companies that need investments they're going first to bureaucracy and govs. But, this is what countries voted for. And certain parties/persons in Italy would love to be allowed to be as (fiscally, budgetary) indisciplined and for as long as they want, totally ignoring the euro zone rules they signed for being accepted. While you might be right on this one, choosing to side with parties that actually want exactly what you dislike, it's rather strange. Imagine Ukip and Farage. I really hope this party won't develop the same strategies because this time around EU will be forced to take an official position. And it won't be good for Italy. Italy is not in the insular UK's position. Don't think it's fun to watch EU burning down, since UK is out and all that, it is not. It will be not, this time around.

To clarify, I sympathise with BOTH sides and have no dog in this fight. When one looks at poor Italy, they have really done badly out of EU membership, I was reading an article recently that said that Italy has seen NO GDP growth since joining the Euro 20 years ago! Just like Greece, they have suffered with the weight of the single currency. If I had suffered this much then I would also want my politicians to fight for a good deal!

	Quote:	k_and_e
	Bulgaria is the country with the lowest income tax rate in the EU. How many people fancy to move there?

Not only the low tax rate, they also have 300 days sunshine a year and some of the finest beaches in Europe. Did I mention one is also allowed to own a gun there? Not a bad place to retire to (for a few years) by any stretch of the imagination!

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	22 yards
	£125k tax free? Despite the weather and the incompetent politicians, I'm moving to the UK!

sorry 12.5k, of course a nondom is not liable to world wide taxation, just remitted income, this is why so many billionaires choose London as it's the best tax haven for their lifestyle.

[Flying Kite]

Unregulated competition and the free market is killing capitalism and make countries to turn to communism...Regulated capitalism is the solution...capitalism is working only when you feed on grabbing other country resources inclusive human ones...

[marton]

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	To clarify, I sympathise with BOTH sides and have no dog in this fight. When one looks at poor Italy, they have really done badly out of EU membership, I was reading an article recently that said that Italy has seen NO GDP growth since joining the Euro 20 years ago! Just like Greece, they have suffered with the weight of the single currency. If I had suffered this much then I would also want my politicians to fight for a good deal!

There are many different success criteria.

A major benefit of EU membership for both Italy and Greece was that they could borrow money at much cheaper rates than before.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	marton
	There are many different success criteria. A major benefit of EU membership for both Italy and Greece was that they could borrow money at much cheaper rates than before.

Not sure if borrowing lots of money will solve Italy's or Greece's problems, ultimately it will lead to default. I believe you mean being part of Eurozone rather than EU membership.