The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

[amogles]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Yes, it's a safe bet that only a smallish minority knows how the EU works or what possibilities exist, even fewer than WRT people's respective own country. I just don't see the usefulness of such a "right", it reminds me of the UK where a petition must be talked about by the Commons, even as little as five minutes, and it's been properly dealt with. Guess I'm spoiled by the local system.

Accountability is about being able to get straight answers and being able to demand and enforce consequences.

The right to non-binding referenda and the right to demand 5 minute debates that will be attended by less than 5 percent of parliamentarians simply do not tick the boxes and do not provide adequate means to rectify grievances.

The Swiss system is the only system that even comes close to genuine accounatbility and giving the people the means to overule their government.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Different words, same meaning - avoid the consequences. Just like she will do at times, it's called being a social animal. It's why I find that demand of "honesty at all times" fruitless and a bit silly. Small kids haven't learned to lie yet, everybody knows the situations that causes every once in a while (far from all of them nice or funny).

Yet you won't hear your friends or acquaintances telling your kids they are spoiled brats, even if they might deserve it at that particular moment....etc.etc.etc.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure most people know all of these....whether they apply these rules themselves or not, or with whom they think it's OK to just let it go at particular moments...that is not my business. Neither responding to random and rather rude EF calls to defend something that obvious.

Thanks for your post, I particularly liked that part with "social animal". One can only hope.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	Anyways, I'm pretty sure most people know all of these....whether they apply these rules themselves or not, or with whom they think it's OK to just let it go at particular moments...that is not my business. Neither responding to random and rather rude EF calls to defend something that obvious.

Probably (though that message concerning the kids should be addressed to the parents instead, should the situation be severe enough to warrant commenting on). Which leads to the assumption that FMF was talking about something entirely different. For instance, that one should accept differing positions on a political topic (Brexit anybody? wasn't it blueangel who said that she knows households who almost broke apart due to it?), and to agree to disagree. Or the requirement to tell a friend that their current OH is not good for them, futile as that's likely to be - not because they're too low or whatever (that's no outsider's business) but because their OH is toxic for the friend, for example.

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Probably (though that message concerning the kids should be addressed to the parents instead, should the situation be severe enough to warrant commenting on). Which leads to the assumption that FMF was talking about something entirely different. For instance, that one should accept differing positions on a political topic (Brexit anybody? wasn't it blueangel who said that she knows households who almost broke apart due to it?), and to agree to disagree. Or the requirement to tell a friend that their current OH is not good for them, futile as that's likely to be - not because they're too low or whatever (that's no outsider's business) but because their OH is toxic for the friend, for example.

Yes, it was BA but not only her, who mentioned cases she knows of, cases of people who had serious disagreements with friends and relatives on the subject of Brexit. Have heard of similar stories related to Trump phenomenon myself. Which again, it brings us to the point of acknowledging the toxicity in politics and the potential of dividing people instead of being just another casual topic of discussion, as it used to be say 10 years ago. What has really changed in the meantime? I think media has changed a lot, and not always in the right direction. They take advantage of the fact that people rarely check their info from more sources than one, and by that I don't mean internet fora or another news channels which are just copy-paste-ing news they haven't check out themselves. It's less and less professionalism, more and more (political or social) agendas.

There are many causes for that, don't even know where to begin. I hope all these people who found themselves in these absurd situation came around, it's not really worth it. There was so much manipulation during Brexit, post Brexit, I really don't blame anyone for falling into any category. It was simply impossible for some not to fall into one camp or another and get really involved in this thing.
Some were hit by the Brexit, not only on a let's say "ideological" level, there were consequences in real life that, as far as I noticed, were shut down here on EF.
I remember Odile and others complaining a lot, if we are to refer only to EF members' experiences or past discussions.

As far as I'm concerned I know people who can get really upset because of politics, at times, but that was never a reason to exclude them or be excluded by them from each other's lives. The way one handles situations like this has nothing to do with integrity, that is absolutely silly. Sometimes you really have to take a deep breath and a few steps back. You don't have to "win" every discussion, you don't have to hurt people by dragging them down and tiring them out with insidious remarks which are meant to make them see your point, whatever that is. It happens a lot on EF. It's annoying. I guess that happens on all fora, among regular members who are under the impression they "know" each other.

I want my friends or relatives to have their own opinions after all, even though I might strongly disagree with them. However, in real life, at least in my environment, people don't step so easily on certain boundaries. It's not about being boring or always agreeing with each other, far from it, we can be very passionate but keep up our humour and self irony too, it's about recognising the need of boundaries and more than anything, our priorities. Politics, EU are not really some of them, albeit they influence our lives too, directly and indirectly. Things that MC has mentioned in some of her posts here have been mentioned by people back home too. There are a lot of things to talk about when a discussion gets stuck though.

I don't even know why we're talking about such banalities, it has not so much to do with EU, the same way as our anecdotes and people we know being really disappointed, and rightly so, with the way EU functions and can or cannot be changed at some levels. These are anecdotes. I'd prefer to move forward and understand what can be done.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:
	Politics, EU are not really some of them, albeit they influence our lives too, directly and indirectly.

On the contrary, politics are fundamental, because it determines the very way you get to live your life, ask any gay person that wants to marry their partner.

What we saw in the UK during BREXIT was the result of people not being politically engaged, many of them only started to discover how their country was governed during the debate for heaven’s sake.

In my opinion people in Switzerland and Ireland tend to be more politically aware simply because they are regularly asked to consider how the country is governed in addition to who they want to govern the country. You can’t live in the country and be unaware of the debates etc even if you choose not to vote in the end. The more people are aware the more difficult it is to sell the more outlandish stories.

For instance the whole idea of pooled sovereignty with the EU, then the EEC, was debated and decided upon in Ireland back in 1973 before Ireland and the UK joined the EEC on the same day. And the decision was that only the Irish people could decide matters of sovereignty and that is why the Irish parliament cannot ratify an EU treaty change.

Did the UK government lie to UK voters about the nature of the EEC back in the day as many BREXITEERS claimed? Well in the light of the debate going on in Ireland at the same time - probably!

[JackieH]

Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross?


So many people talk about 'politics' as if it was in a separate box from real life. Heard so many people say, and sadly often women 'I don't believe in politics' - the mind boggles. Politics is about education, social care, the NHS/healthcare, the care of the elderly and those of all ages with a disability. It is about our relationships with other countries, about transport, agriculture and what we eat, the environment and how we protect it, business and trade, finances, safety and army, intelligence, crime and terrorism, how we deal with pandemics, - and so much more. Basic, every day life and death.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	greenmount
	I don't even know why we're talking about such banalities, it has not so much to do with EU, the same way as our anecdotes and people we know being really disappointed, and rightly so, with the way EU functions and can or cannot be changed at some levels. These are anecdotes. I'd prefer to move forward and understand what can be done.

It's your choice to post stuff you seem to deem banal. And please speak for yourself.

WRT to the topic of lies I most strongly disagree, that topic is anything but banal. In fact trust, the mirror image of lies, is a central element without which our society couldn't possibly function. Heck, we even put our health and lives in the hands of strangers as part of our everyday lives based on nothing but trust.

Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies. The MSM no longer care about fair and relatively factual reporting (according to post-modernism there's no such thing as truth and objective reality anyway), their sole driver is clicks and clickbaiting as the means to generate cash flow. The shortest path to that is outrage, and stirring emotions in general, that's also why every topic has a very short shelf life as strong emotions will abate after a relatively short time - climate change and FfF anyone?

	Quote:	JackieH
	Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross?

It's a condition sine qua non in a democracy, due to freedom of opinion and expression thereof. Democracy defined as an organisation of state where the individual is the sole and ultimate source of legal power.

You need to be able to discuss anything and everything in public, strong emphasis on discuss. What you agree on in private is, well, a private matter.

ETA:
At the risk of being wrong, I'm assuming that you think Trump is racist, or has racist tendencies, or at least accepts/welcomes racists among his followers. If that's correct, can you give me a short reasoning what you base that opinion on?

(yes, entirely OT, but it's far from the first thread that derails for a short while)

[JackieH]

No short reasoning- but miles and miles of evidence. So long, easier to post a link


https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	Jim2007
	On the contrary, politics are fundamental, because it determines the very way you get to live your life, ask any gay person that wants to marry their partner. What we saw in the UK during BREXIT was the result of people not being politically engaged, many of them only started to discover how their country was governed during the debate for heaven’s sake. In my opinion people in Switzerland and Ireland tend to be more politically aware simply because they are regularly asked to consider how the country is governed in addition to who they want to govern the country. You can’t live in the country and be unaware of the debates etc even if you choose not to vote in the end. The more people are aware the more difficult it is to sell the more outlandish stories. For instance the whole idea of pooled sovereignty with the EU, then the EEC, was debated and decided upon in Ireland back in 1973 before Ireland and the UK joined the EEC on the same day. And the decision was that only the Irish people could decide matters of sovereignty and that is why the Irish parliament cannot ratify an EU treaty change. Did the UK government lie to UK voters about the nature of the EEC back in the day as many BREXITEERS claimed? Well in the light of the debate going on in Ireland at the same time - probably!

Excellent point about direct democracy.

One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government.

I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy.

It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter.

My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

[HickvonFrick]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Excellent point about direct democracy. One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government. I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy. It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter. My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

I guess at least Brexit ultimately saw off Jeremy Corbyn. Thank heavens for small mercies.

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	greenmount
	True, it's the first step but I don't think I'm wrong when I assume the vast majority of "European Union citizens" have no idea they have this right, among many others. It's simply not a subject debated very much. It was just an example. It looks like everyone is powerless, everyone is complaining but in reality we all have to push for more accountability first at home and then within EU. imho obviously.

Your first step should be to stop assuming this that and the other and start reading the research reports and the surveys that are published on a regular basis by the EU, the member state and the various watch dogs etc...

[greenmount]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	It's your choice to post stuff you seem to deem banal. And please speak for yourself. ....................................... It's a condition sine qua non in a democracy, due to freedom of opinion and expression thereof. Democracy defined as an organisation of state where the individual is the sole and ultimate source of legal power. You need to be able to discuss anything and everything in public, strong emphasis on discuss. What you agree on in private is, well, a private matter.

Well, I aim to post stuff that is on-topic, and yes, frankly I'm a bit frustrated when people insist going off on a tangent. From a short agreement with someone's post, as to confirm the opinion that what our friends and people we hang around with might not be always willing to disagree with us but rather look for common grounds or simply let the discussion flow, for reasons I deem obvious and quite banal...to here. OK, the subject is important if you put everything in the context of freedom of expression and democracy.

My point was what other people say and think it is important to a certain degree, but I have my doubts it is fruitful to debate all our anecdotes. At the end of the day, everyone has a vote and they will use it as they see fit.

My intention was to discuss more to the point and I'm still interested in the EU fiscal policy for instance. The way people see it here is not the way specialists see it. There are different reasons for which EU needs a common fiscal policy. Maybe I'll try to post some relevant links to articles I found interesting when I get more time. Maybe.

And yes, we should be able to debate everything in public. Common affairs, people's private lives are not our business.....although tabloids might disagree on that... As far as I'm concerned, polite disagreements are the only ones that make me reconsider my opinion. Not necessarily change it but give more thoughts to some issues.
Of course I can't speak for anyone else and I did not intend to do that. I might have phrased my thoughts poorly, it didn't seem very important to the debate tbh.

	Quote:	JackieH
	Political opinions don't belong into a no man's land vacuum- they have real consequences on real people. How far do you go with the 'agree to disagree' - racism, fascisim - are there really no red lines you will refuse to cross? So many people talk about 'politics' as if it was in a separate box from real life. Heard so many people say, and sadly often women 'I don't believe in politics' - the mind boggles. Politics is about education, social care, the NHS/healthcare, the care of the elderly and those of all ages with a disability. It is about our relationships with other countries, about transport, agriculture and what we eat, the environment and how we protect it, business and trade, finances, safety and army, intelligence, crime and terrorism, how we deal with pandemics, - and so much more. Basic, every day life and death.

Politics is very important but different people are aware of that to different degrees. For instance, you might be more involved or engaged than others. I heard that too "I don't believe in politics", also especially from women... Just think of the reasons they might believe that. Not trying to find any excuses here but to understand their opinions. I have my explanations too which I choose not to post here as to keep this thread on track.....there's always hope.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	Your first step should be to stop assuming this that and the other and start reading the research reports and the surveys that are published on a regular basis by the EU, the member state and the various watch dogs etc...

I've actually read a few reports on how well people know their rights within EU and there are (huge) differences among various countries. And even so, some rights are known, some not. I rarely assume on some topics, that's why I don't take certain opinions here very lightly. As for implementing those rights...well, that's a whole different matter. Rights and obligations, that would be an interesting topic to debate, not necessarily here.
Keep up the good job to anyone who posts in good faith.

@UrsMax, I have put some order in my posts and merged two of them as to give more clarity

	Quote:	Urs Max
	WRT to the topic of lies I most strongly disagree, that topic is anything but banal. In fact trust, the mirror image of lies, is a central element without which our society couldn't possibly function. Heck, we even put our health and lives in the hands of strangers as part of our everyday lives based on nothing but trust. Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies.

If you are interested in the topic of prosocial lies, white lies, courtesy bias etc there are tons of materials and research papers

https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp...Lies-OBHDP.pdf

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view...8-e-22-div2-68

https://www.businessinsider.com/lies...18-4?r=US&IR=T

https://poly.land/2018/11/17/when-pe...-want-to-hear/

https://www.in-mind.org/article/whit...ow-they-differ

I know you didn't refer to white lies in regards with MSM, but it is important to remind you how this discussion started in the first place. I personally think that well engineered propaganda campaigns are a separate thing.

[John William]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Excellent point about direct democracy. One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government. I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy. It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter. My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

No doubt the Scots have the same view about Westminster as you did about Brussels.


Still on the plus side of leaving no doubt Boris gets a 'warm fuzzy feeling' about the estimated £72 billion pound contribution savings that the UK would have had to put in the EU Covid Recovery Fund that
Britain avoided by leaving on the 31st January this year.

[JackieH]

Johnson finds himself in a very difficult position. He was pro EU, but so hell bent on becoming PM he had to get ERG on his side and the far right too.

He now knows that the EU will not compromise on the level playing field or on the Irish border. He also knows No Deal will be disastrous, and that a deal with Trump will cost the UK the NHS, workers' rights and agriculture and financial services, and that he will never be forgiven for this, and that other deals are not forthcoming or insignificant.


So watch this space- what will he do next? Some are predicting a massive U-turn

[Jim2007]

	Quote:	JackieH
	He now knows that the EU will not compromise on the level playing field or on the Irish border. He also knows No Deal will be disastrous, and that a deal with Trump will cost the UK the NHS, workers' rights and agriculture and financial services, and that he will never be forgiven for this, and that other deals are not forthcoming or insignificant.

It’s a bit more complicated than that though....

- The US Congress will not approve any deal that does not respect GFA
- The Japanese and Canadian trade deals with the EU requires EU agreement to give the any deal as good as or better than the deal with the EU
- Approval of the UK trade terms at the WTO requires members to accept a lower duty free quota with the EU, so no surprises that many members are objecting
- The WTO requires the approval of all 165 members versus 27 in the EU...

And the WTO Terms published by the UK government will see 87% of imports from the 165 members enter the UK at zero tariffs... more competition for the home industries... and not much motivation to do a trade deal in any hurry...

And of course no one mentions services.... which is the usual reason for explaining away a thirty period in which the UK rarely produced a positive balance of trade... we’re a service economy!

I fear we’ll see a lot of unrest in the UK as the average BREXITEERS realize that their vote counted for nothing as they are still being screwed by the establishment.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	JackieH
	No short reasoning- but miles and miles of evidence. So long, easier to post a link https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

Sorry but that article is nonsense. It conflates stereotyping, xenophobia, and other not-so-nice attitudes under the "racist" umbrella, probably with no other intent than to maximise outrage.

And of course it's nothing but a blatant lie by the MSM when they claim that Trump didn't condemn Nazis and the white nationalists/supremacists in the aftermath of Charlottesville. The only thing you've probably seen is his "there were fine people on both sides" or similar, but the MSM willfully ignore his statement at around 1min57 in the press briefing. That statement makes it crystal clear that Trump speaks about non-extremists (from both sides !!) in the rest of the press briefing.

So it's racist to dub Covid-19 as the China virus after its place of origin or first know outbreak. Yet the follwoing names are perfectly fine even though, like China virus, all describe the pathogen's place of discovery or first outbreak:
Spanish flu, Hongkong flu, Norovirus (from Norwalk, Conn., where it was first identified), German measles (rubella), MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrom), Marburg virus (after a German town where it was identified first), ebola virus (after a river in Kongo). It's always good to see people don't fall for double standards. Cough. Cough. Cough.

[marton]

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	Excellent point about direct democracy. One thing I really like about Switzerland is the trust people and local authorities are shown to have real power. Compared to the situation in the UK where both main parties are incredibly centralising and big government. I voted brexit back in 2016 as I believe that government should be local and accountable, and that unelected and distant EU commissioners take the "demos" out of democracy. It's really a pipe dream that any good will become of the vote though - it'll just used as an excuse to be rude to Johnny Foreigner and adopt increasingly irrational and badly thought through policy in a misguided Tory attempt to appeal to the red wall voter. My weariness of the level of the political system in the uk was actually a significant factor in coming here.

Pity your vote was predicated on the myth that EU commissioners make decisions. They can only recommend, it is the EU states together with the EU Parliament that have decision making powers.

[John William]

A British-German study uncovers huge changes in migration patterns of UK citizens since the
2016 British Referendum on the EU.

Well no surprise from this report.

Remember to click on - I'll do it later - to read the full article.

The Guardian - Brexit fuels brain drain as skilled Britons head to the EU

[greenmount]

	Quote:	marton
	Pity your vote was predicated on the myth that EU commissioners make decisions. They can only recommend, it is the EU states together with the EU Parliament that have decision making powers.

Yes, let's read exactly what their role is, not what people assume.

	Quote:
	The European Commission is the EU's politically independent executive arm. It is alone responsible for drawing up proposals for new European legislation, and it implements the decisions of the European Parliament and the Council of the EU. What does the Commission do? Proposes new laws The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council that: protect the interests of the EU and its citizens on issues that can't be dealt with effectively at national level get technical details right by consulting experts and the public Manages EU policies & allocates EU funding sets EU spending priorities, together with the Council and Parliament draws up annual budgets for approval by the Parliament and Council supervises how the money is spent, under scrutiny by the Court of Auditors Enforces EU law together with the Court of Justice, ensures that EU law is properly applied in all the member countries Represents the EU internationally speaks on behalf of all EU countries in international bodies, in particular in areas of trade policy and humanitarian aid negotiates international agreements for the EU Composition Political leadership is provided by a team of 27 Commissioners (one from each EU country) – led by the Commission President, who decides who is responsible for which policy area. The College of Commissioners is composed of the President of the Commission, eight Vice-Presidents, including three Executive Vice-Presidents, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, and 18 Commissioners, each responsible for a portfolio. The day-to-day running of Commission business is performed by its staff (lawyers, economists, etc.), organised into departments known as Directorates-General (DGs), each responsible for a specific policy area. Appointing the President The candidate is put forward by national leaders in the European Council, taking account of the results of the European Parliament elections. He or she needs the support of a majority of members of the European Parliament in order to be elected. Selecting the team The Presidential candidate selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from the EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by national leaders in the European Council. Each nominee appears before the European Parliament to explain their vision and answer questions. Parliament then votes on whether to accept the nominees as a team. Finally, they are appointed by the European Council, by a qualified majority. The current Commission's term of office runs until 31 October 2024. How does the Commission work? Strategic planning The President defines the policy direction for the Commission, which enables the Commissioners together to decide strategic objectives, and produce the annual work programme. Collective decision making Decisions are taken based on collective responsibility. All Commissioners are equal in the decision-making process and equally accountable for these decisions. They do not have any individual decision-making powers, except when authorized in certain situations. The Vice-Presidents act on behalf of the President and coordinate work in their area of responsibility, together with several Commissioners. Priority projects are defined to help ensure that the College works together in a close and flexible manner. Commissioners support Vice-Presidents in submitting proposals to the College. In general, decisions are made by consensus, but votes can also take place. In this case, decisions are taken by simple majority, where every Commissioner has one vote. The relevant Directorate-General (headed by a Director-General, answerable to the relevant Commissioner) then takes up the subject. This is usually done in the form of draft legislative proposals. These are then resubmitted to the Commissioners for adoption at their weekly meeting, after which they become official, and are sent to the Council and the Parliament for the next stage in the EU legislative process. The European Commission and you Give input If you want to give us your views on EU policies or suggest changes or new policies, you have various options: send a response to a Commission public consultation on an issue that concerns you launch a European Citizens' Initiative make a formal complaint if you think EU law is not being applied properly in your case Get info The Commission also provides advice & information services to help you with business, study, legal matters, and moving and working around Europe. Contact us For any questions you have about our work: contact Commission staff (in Brussels, etc.) contact a local Commission office in your country

From
https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...-commission_en

[marton]

@UrsMax
"Which leads back to the MSM and their daily misrepresentations and outright blatant lies."
If this is your opinion then that is OK. If you want to claim it as a fact then you need to show enough examples to confirm it as a pattern of behaviour; one or two examples are not sufficient,

I am not a fan of Wikipedia but rather than continue off topic do read this about Trump racism.